The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[G]

13 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

I think gruden has a bigger playbook. 
ive heard in interviews from everyone like mike may to other players about how ab basically jacked up the playbook plans

I'm proud that we had the season we did with the AB drama. It was a noticeable difference from the players/team that 'quit' the year before. 

I'd say this season will have less distractions but I honestly can't say anything about 2020 because who knows what's going to happen or not happen. So happy we had a draft to feed our obsessive tendencies. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

6 minutes ago, G said:

I'm proud that we had the season we did with the AB drama. It was a noticeable difference from the players/team that 'quit' the year before. 

I'd say this season will have less distractions but I honestly can't say anything about 2020 because who knows what's going to happen or not happen. So happy we had a draft to feed our obsessive tendencies. 

Agree last year proved we have a strong locker room but like you said 2020 has been a expect everything you never expected To happen year lol

[Darbsk]

8 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Just to have everyone on the record.  Does Carr have enough weapons to succeed?  

I say yes and he has top ten weapons and o-line.  No excuses unless the entire team goes down with hamstring injuries.

Surely we gave to see the rookies play before making a judgement on them? It looks on paper like we have a great OL, good to very good RB/FB/CoP Back, Good to very good TEs and lots of potential albeit rawness at WR. 

A good QB should produce at a high level with this potentisl surrounding cast on paper. Of course, so much depends upon Ruggs handling an expanded and more complex role, Williams staying healthy and delivering, Edwards developing and that Bowden isn't a damp squib as so many of these gadget players are.

Its such a fluid situation that i think its best to judge after pre season (if there is one) and then quarterly if you want an honest and informed opinion rather than simply 'hot take' reasons to either bash Carr or pass the buck onto supporting cast and coaches.

 

[true2form]

22 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Imo defense job is to stop the other teams offense from scoring points. If they get a turnover even better. I wish forcing a offense to punt counted as a defensive stat like a turnover imo they should.

That’s why I like being a coach. I’m celebrating my defense forcing a punt just as much as a int or fumble recovery.
 

example: vs wash defense forced 2 t/O’s and 5 punts. 7 times the defense gave the ball back to the offense and we could only produce 10 points all game.
 

offense job is to score points imo And if they can control the t.o.p. Even better.

 

 

Oh I agree with what your saying. However you're still focusing on one game and not giving the offense the same benefit.

If the defense gets extra credit for "doing what it's supposed to" then what's the correlation for offense?  A 3 and out doesn't equal a TD in my book. So is a 3 and out by the defense equal to a first down by the offense? 2 first downs? 3?

Hope you understand what I mean.

[true2form]

19 hours ago, raidr4life said:

Your eyes don't deceive you, we played what was supposed to be the easy part of our schedule against bad teams, the defense held up mostly, but we couldn't score points

I could argue that the only offense that the defense played in those 4 games was the Titans. While our offense played 3 top 15 defenses.

[NCOUGHMAN]

36 minutes ago, true2form said:

Oh I agree with what your saying. However you're still focusing on one game and not giving the offense the same benefit.

If the defense gets extra credit for "doing what it's supposed to" then what's the correlation for offense?  A 3 and out doesn't equal a TD in my book. So is a 3 and out by the defense equal to a first down by the offense? 2 first downs? 3?

Hope you understand what I mean.

Interesting concept I see what your saying I wonder what’s the Offensive equivalent To a defensive 3and out. Maybe a fg?

im referencing one game (wash 2017) but it’s been a reoccurring situation here multiple years now

[RaidersAreOne]

Super long and in-depth breakdown of Carr:

 

[Mr Raider]

On 5/13/2020 at 8:35 PM, drfrey13 said:

Just to have everyone on the record.  Does Carr have enough weapons to succeed?  

I say yes and he has top ten weapons and o-line.  No excuses unless the entire team goes down with hamstring injuries.

It's so hard to say. A decent portion of his upgraded weapons are rookies. And as much as we may like and believe in them, we all know the history of draft picks panning out. Obviously if Ruggs produces like a top 12 pick should (a legit #1 WR) the weapons overall are upgraded tremendously. But it's just as likely that Ruggs busts, or at least takes a year or two to make the impact you drafted him for (the likelihood goes up even higher if training camp is effected). It gets even trickier banking on 3rd round picks to come in and produce immediately. 

Plus it goes back to expectations. What do we define has productive for Carr? What type of season is good enough in relation to the improved weapons? I bet a lot have different definitions of that. 

I will say Carr has upgraded weapons. Even if the guys don't play to their full potential, the weapons are definitely improved on paper. I would have higher expectations for Carr if Lamb was the first pick because I think he fits Carr's game better and his skill set lends itself to a more immediate impact than Ruggs, though Ruggs elite athletic skills may give him the higher ceiling and bigger long term upside. 

Carr needs to have a better year. So I guess that's my way of saying that he has enough weapons to show improvement. Third year in the system, upgraded weapons that compliment each other and the weapons that are returning, plus hopeful improvement from Jacobs, Waller, and Renfrow who are in their second year of extensive playing time at the NFL level. 

So an improved season? Yes. Does he need to have an elite season because he's just flooded with proven NFL talent? No. He needs to play as a top 12ish QB to be locked in as the long term QB for the team as we move to Vegas. 

[bucksavage1]

45 minutes ago, Mr Raider said:

It's so hard to say. A decent portion of his upgraded weapons are rookies. And as much as we may like and believe in them, we all know the history of draft picks panning out. Obviously if Ruggs produces like a top 12 pick should (a legit #1 WR) the weapons overall are upgraded tremendously. But it's just as likely that Ruggs busts, or at least takes a year or two to make the impact you drafted him for (the likelihood goes up even higher if training camp is effected). It gets even trickier banking on 3rd round picks to come in and produce immediately. 

Plus it goes back to expectations. What do we define has productive for Carr? What type of season is good enough in relation to the improved weapons? I bet a lot have different definitions of that. 

I will say Carr has upgraded weapons. Even if the guys don't play to their full potential, the weapons are definitely improved on paper. I would have higher expectations for Carr if Lamb was the first pick because I think he fits Carr's game better and his skill set lends itself to a more immediate impact than Ruggs, though Ruggs elite athletic skills may give him the higher ceiling and bigger long term upside. 

Carr needs to have a better year. So I guess that's my way of saying that he has enough weapons to show improvement. Third year in the system, upgraded weapons that compliment each other and the weapons that are returning, plus hopeful improvement from Jacobs, Waller, and Renfrow who are in their second year of extensive playing time at the NFL level. 

So an improved season? Yes. Does he need to have an elite season because he's just flooded with proven NFL talent? No. He needs to play as a top 12ish QB to be locked in as the long term QB for the team as we move to Vegas. 

At this point Carr has to produce more wins, that's the main part. Too many times the offense failed to score in the 2nd half. No shows vs good teams. If the team can't win with Carr in his 7th season starting, time to start over at the QB and get someone new in. Can't keep kicking the tires on an average QB especially our division rival has the best young QB in the league

Edited May 15, 2020 by bucksavage1

[drfrey13]

1 hour ago, Mr Raider said:

It's so hard to say. A decent portion of his upgraded weapons are rookies. And as much as we may like and believe in them, we all know the history of draft picks panning out. Obviously if Ruggs produces like a top 12 pick should (a legit #1 WR) the weapons overall are upgraded tremendously. But it's just as likely that Ruggs busts, or at least takes a year or two to make the impact you drafted him for (the likelihood goes up even higher if training camp is effected). It gets even trickier banking on 3rd round picks to come in and produce immediately. 

Plus it goes back to expectations. What do we define has productive for Carr? What type of season is good enough in relation to the improved weapons? I bet a lot have different definitions of that. 

I will say Carr has upgraded weapons. Even if the guys don't play to their full potential, the weapons are definitely improved on paper. I would have higher expectations for Carr if Lamb was the first pick because I think he fits Carr's game better and his skill set lends itself to a more immediate impact than Ruggs, though Ruggs elite athletic skills may give him the higher ceiling and bigger long term upside. 

Carr needs to have a better year. So I guess that's my way of saying that he has enough weapons to show improvement. Third year in the system, upgraded weapons that compliment each other and the weapons that are returning, plus hopeful improvement from Jacobs, Waller, and Renfrow who are in their second year of extensive playing time at the NFL level. 

So an improved season? Yes. Does he need to have an elite season because he's just flooded with proven NFL talent? No. He needs to play as a top 12ish QB to be locked in as the long term QB for the team as we move to Vegas. 

I want to see full games where he is productive.  If the offense can do its job and we do not get wins I will not put that on him.  I do not expect an elite season because I do not believe he is an elite QB.  I want an offense that can put points up in the 2nd half against good teams.  It will not happen every week but I want to see it work more often than it is stopped.  I do not want him to be reckless but when your team needs you to take a hit to get that key 1st down you can not be afraid.  Carr is not Wilson , Brady, or Rodgers but he can be clutch.  He needs to get back to figuring out how to win.  That is why he was special in 2016.

[raidr4life]

36 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I want to see full games where he is productive.  If the offense can do its job and we do not get wins I will not put that on him.  I do not expect an elite season because I do not believe he is an elite QB.  I want an offense that can put points up in the 2nd half against good teams.  It will not happen every week but I want to see it work more often than it is stopped.  I do not want him to be reckless but when your team needs you to take a hit to get that key 1st down you can not be afraid.  Carr is not Wilson , Brady, or Rodgers but he can be clutch.  He needs to get back to figuring out how to win.  That is why he was special in 2016.

With "old trash Crabs" and "soft Coop"?

[drfrey13]

2 hours ago, raidr4life said:

With "old trash Crabs" and "soft Coop"?

I never called Crabtree trash and I definitely have not not called Cooper soft.  They were never the problem.  2016 could have just been a fluke and everything went our way but you have to admit that Carr 2016 and Carr 2017 is a very different player to go along with a horrible reversal of the turnover ratio.  We went from #1 in the league at +16 to #29th at -14.  Some of that is luck but a 30 turnover swing had something to do with the players and coaches also.

[raidr4life]

10 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

I never called Crabtree trash and I definitely have not not called Cooper soft.  They were never the problem.  2016 could have just been a fluke and everything went our way but you have to admit that Carr 2016 and Carr 2017 is a very different player to go along with a horrible reversal of the turnover ratio.  We went from #1 in the league at +16 to #29th at -14.  Some of that is luck but a 30 turnover swing had something to do with the players and coaches also.

I know I was quoting someone who when Carr stank blamed Crabs and Coop. But it was with Crabs and Coop when he looked Elite.

Edited May 15, 2020 by raidr4life

[raidr4life]

 

[Rich7sena]

9 hours ago, raidr4life said:

 

The fact that Carr only attempted 15 passes from the RPO is telling of how QB-unfriendly Gruden's system was last season. Also, charting RPOs is an inexact science since it is becoming increasingly more difficult to distinguish PRO from a simple play action.

In passing metrics with larger sample sizes, Carr has routinely shown up at the top or near the top of the list. I would argue that despite Carr playing on worse offenses since 2016, he is a better player today than he was in 2016.