Should the Texans and Vikings panic?

[CP3MVP]

Was the Tunsil trade worth it?

[ET80]

13 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Was the Tunsil trade worth it?

I mean... he's not the issue on the OL. I think he has yet to give up a sack or commit a penalty this season, he's been at the top of his game. But, I think he illustrates that a non-QB is limited in impact. Even the best LT is hamstrung when the rest of the OL has regressed significantly. (Joe Thomas sort of illustrated this over the course of a career).

It's not worth it, given the price paid. That's not a knock on Tunsil, who has been really good - that's a knock on the guy who came up with the asking price to bring Tunsil in.

[MWil23]

The Texans first pick is in the third round in 2021. That means that it's time to panic a little bit, even if you do get rid of BOB. 

[ET80]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

The Texans first pick is in the third round in 2021. That means that it's time to panic a little bit, even if you do get rid of BOB. 

It was always time to panic on this one. It's still a bit before we got the bottom of this, even after BoB is shown the door (IF he's shown the door). 

There are guys who can be cut next off-season and they'll have to be replaced with low level guys. 2022 is when the draft picks return, and there's no question about it - those have to hit, and hit hard. 

That was always the case, though. The only plus is that the two positions that are drafted most in the first/top 10 (QB and LT) are handled. A 25 year old franchise QB and a 26 year old franchise LT is a foundation you can build on for years, you don't need to go all in on a single season. You can take a mulligan on Y1 of the post-BoB era and still have years to work with these two. 

There's upside... even with this downturn.

[Tk3]

1 minute ago, CP3MVP said:

Was the Tunsil trade worth it?

I think this is the wrong question. The Tunsil trade had clear benefits and had some level of agency in their success last season

The better question is, GIVEN the Tunsil trade, were the other moves worth it (ie, Hopkins)? And I think that is a resounding "no"

[MWil23]

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

It was always time to panic on this one. It's still a bit before we got the bottom of this, even after BoB is shown the door (IF he's shown the door). 

There are guys who can be cut next off-season and they'll have to be replaced with low level guys. 2022 is when the draft picks return, and there's no question about it - those have to hit, and hit hard. 

That was always the case, though. The only plus is that the two positions that are drafted most in the first/top 10 (QB and LT) are handled. A 25 year old franchise QB and a 26 year old franchise LT is a foundation you can build on for years, you don't need to go all in on a single season. You can take a mulligan on Y1 of the post-BoB era and still have years to work with these two. 

There's upside... even with this downturn.

No question, they have the core pieces. My concern, however, is this:

Considering they have the core pieces and are still 0-4 (and you would know this more than I would as an outsider), that tells me there are a LOT of major issues from a roster standpoint to warrant the need for a lot of picks to address these needs.

As you said, they need to hit and hit hard. They have very little room for error, and given that they are all 3rd Round and beyond picks, that room for error becomes even more difficult. 

While they don't need to spend a Top 10 pick at OT or QB, they will likely need to address a lot of the following:

1. Their rush offense is virtually nonexistent, and they aren't exactly getting a lot of production from that position in the passing game either

2. Their passing efficiency is poor and their WR/TE position(s) is/are now underwhelming

3. They can't stop the run (that's alarming)

4. They're dead last in the NFL in forcing turnovers

5. I think I may be able to play DB for them currently

6. They aren't having a lot of success rushing the passer

Granted, we'll see how this goes with the rest of 2020, as they've played a very difficult schedule to this point (minus yesterday) as their first 3 weeks were BRUTAL. However, their front 7 is aging, their secondary is awful, and their LB corps isn't anything to write home about, not to mention glaring holes at the offensive skill positions.

[ET80]

22 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Considering they have the core pieces and are still 0-4 (and you would know this more than I would as an outsider), that tells me there are a LOT of major issues from a roster standpoint to warrant the need for a lot of picks to address these needs.

I actually think a lot of the 0-4 is simply due to scheme. It's a cop out, I know - but there are times when this offense and defense look the part. They just don't look the part for a full 60 minutes, it's a drive or two at most, and then it falls apart, mostly because the team tries to do something outside of what's working. 

On offense, you see Watson working magic in a quick strike passing attack - receivers get open quickly, Watson gets them the ball, chunk yardage is there. You saw it in all four games so far - in a thought, it looks and feels a lot like what Clemson used to do. Then, BoB feels the need to run the ball between the C/G gap multiple times in a drive, which fails out. Momentum is lost, 3rd and long situations mean predictability, punt or FG attempt.

30 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Their rush offense is virtually nonexistent, and they aren't exactly getting a lot of production from that position in the passing game either

This is truly baffling, because this is nearly the exact same group that sprung Carlos Hyde for 1,000 last season. Only thing that changed is David Johnson for Hyde. Hyde is a much more decisive runner - Johnson tries to jump cut and find a hole, and he's getting bricked on it. 

A runner is required, but the RIGHT runner is more of a necessity. Downhill, one cut and go types will serve better. Those guys can be found relatively easily, IMO.

32 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

35 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

 

Their passing efficiency is poor and their WR/TE position(s) is/are now underwhelming

I agree, and this is where Watson needs to elevate those around him. It's going to be a while before he gets a bonafide #1 in the first round, but he's got to play as if that #1 is never coming to town. Aaron Rodgers had that situation, and turned guys such as Jordy Nelson and Davante Adams into #1s. Watson needs to do that at his pay grade.

35 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

They can't stop the run (that's alarming)

This is 100% due to DJ Reader leaving. This is another drop on O'Brien, and - as a fan - the hope is that Ross Blacklock develops into that guy. You won't see it this season, but hopefully next year it'll work out. (Wishful thinking, possibly).

37 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

They're dead last in the NFL in forcing turnovers

I think this is due to each DB playing hyper conservative. That needs to change, some risks will have to be taken.

38 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I think I may be able to play DB for them currently

Dimes to dollars, this is the pick in the 3rd round. Truth be told, this has been an issue LONG before this season, pretty much since before Vrabel left. FA dollars have been spent, draft picks traded, draft picks used - after a while, it's not about resources used, you have to analyze your scheme to see if it's correct. Tyrann Mathieu was a mess here, Kareem Jackson was a mess here, but both turned into All Pro calibur players once they left - that's telling me Romeo's scheme has fallen behind on the times.

41 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

They aren't having a lot of success rushing the passer

No doubt, and I'm sure FA dollars will probably be used here. Whitney Mercilius is being paid like a top end pass rusher. Hopefully he's cut and that money is used to bring in a real pass rusher...

It's bleak, but we just saw this team doing all of these things less than a year ago. I'm sincerely of the mindset that it's there, you just need a new voice to prod this into the correct direction.

[pacman5252]

1 hour ago, CP3MVP said:

Was the Tunsil trade worth it?

Absolutely not,

Trading picks for guys who want to be paid, typically doesn't make sense unless you have a ton of cap and a loaded roster. When you trade picks for a player that wants to be paid, you are giving up cheap labor and cap space (double whammy).

If a first round pick is just a marginal starter (doesn't bust), you are getting a value contract (average first round pick makes like 3M, a solid starter in 2020 costs 8-10M). For the cost of Tunsil, they could have signed a decent tackle like Bryan Bulaga, one more decent starting DL, and used their pick(s)

 

BoB was a desperate GM and that is going to cost the Texans long term.

[SBLIII]

Vikings have loads of potential. For 2021. Need to move on from Kirk though. But Cook and Jefferson could be absolutely deadly with a good QB.

[diamondbull424]

12 hours ago, ET80 said:

I think the damage is done. The team is unprepared, comes out incredibly slow and with no sense of urgency. This team can't put together a full game of football, it's a drive and then nothing, every single week. The coach is too concerned with justifying the Hopkins trade so badly, he's calling up runs to David Johnson up the middle for nothing, which creates a bunch of 2nd/3rd and long situations - then the coach says "I've got to coach better" as if that's not incredibly obvious at this point.

Between the playoff game vs KC to now, the coach is only getting worse. There is literally no redeeming quality he brings to the table, he's literally the dumbest, most stubborn person in football. That's a dangerous combination...

Oh I agree. I just don’t know if the ownership would be willing to cast him out yet. You would know better, but from what it seems they’ve been very “accepting” of his flaws to this point.

I see BoB as a Brian Billick type of coach that was needed to instill some structure, discipline, and vision to a young franchise. But at a certain point they outgrow his skillset and need someone better to elevate the squad.

I feel very similarly about Greg Roman as an OC, heck he’d probably be very similar as a HC. Someone to stabilize a bad team into a mediocre team before they grow into their “good” replacement.

[Shanedorf]

Both teams are celebrating today
one because they won, one because they lost
but the one that won, might be lost
while the one that lost, definitely won

[ET80]

THANK YOU MINNESOTA!!!!!

[DannyB]

26 minutes ago, ET80 said:

THANK YOU MINNESOTA!!!!!

I say this with zero sarcasm: I am very happy for you.

Let's hope Watson can grow and develop now.

[ET80]

Just now, DannyB said:

I say this with zero sarcasm: I am very happy for you.

Let's hope Watson can grow and develop now.

I do appreciate it, sir!