Raiders Offense Thread 2.0:

[dante9876]

To the wr topic. I think we be looking at guys like corey Davis,  Chris Conley and since it's a gruden lead team the vet AJ Green is definitely in play. We not paying no high price wr. 

[ronjon1990]

6 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Lamar Jackson (29-7 record): 6,972 yards (64.2 comp%), 65 TD, 17 INT, 102.5 passer rating

Jalen Hurts (1-2 record): 989 yards (54.7 comp%), 6 TD, 3 INT, 85.7 passer rating

Lamar could only ever wish to be as good as Hurts though... That may be the worst take in this history of this board and that's saying a lot. 

Cute that you use 36 games to prove a point against 3.

Lamar Jackson rookie year: 

Took over week 10 for a 4-5 team. 

First 3 games:

13/19 68% 150 yds 0 td 1 int vs the 5-4 (6-10) Bengals. ..... real great grind of a win that one.

14/25 56% 178 yds 1 td 2 int vs the 2-8 (4-12) Raiders. ...... real fantastic game there. What a superstar! 

12/21 57% 125 yds 0 td 0 int vs the 4-8 (7-9) Falcons. .....man, Lamar had 3 straight fantastic games didn't he? 

39/65 60% 453 1 td 3 int against 3 teams with virtually no shot at the playoffs, against the 30th, 32nd, and 29th ranked defenses (32nd, 19th, and 27th passing defenses). All with a wonderful 67.6 Passer Rating.  

Contrast with Jalen Hurts' first 3 starts:

Took over a hapless 3-8-1 team in week 14. 

17/30 57% 167 1 td 0 int vs the 10-2 (11-4) Saints. 

24/44 54% 338 3 td 0 int vs the 7-6 (8-7) Cardinals.

21/39 54% 342 yds 1 td 2 int vs the 5-9 (6-9) Cowboys. 

62/113 54% 847 yds 5 td 2 int against 3 teams fighting for playoff positions, fielding the 7th, 15th, and 30th overall defensive units (5th, 10th, and 11th pass defenses). 

Nearly twice the yardage, 4× the tds, fewer ints (considering 1 was a last ditch effort, literally 1/2 of the ints) against superior competition on an inferior team. 

I know research isn't your strongest suit (possibly only in front of your grasp of football in general), but c'mon man. Even simply calling it "the worst take in the history of this board" belies not only how litle you know, but proves my point that you're patently incapable of defending your own position without rhetorical vitriol. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by ronjon1990

[MrOaktown_56]

18 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I agree. Build a D that is at least middle of the road and this is a playoff team.  It's just sad that we have such little talent on D after investing so much in it over the last few years.  Many wasted draft picks and FA busts.  

Like I have said in other posts generating a pass rush form up the middle is critical.  If Williams hits the FA market we need to offer him at least 18 per season.  That could provide the biggest boost to this D.  I would also not be opposed to adding another interior DL through the draft in the 3rd or 4th.    

If we can sign LW and hit on a dominant edge rusher we could have a significant jump in production. 

I don't think Williams hits the market. But yeah I'd love to add him.

[Frankie2Gunz]

16 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I don't think Williams hits the market. But yeah I'd love to add him.

I agree.  I don't think the Giants let him go and if they don't then we should spend some early draft capital on one if they pose good value.

If LW isn't an option I would not be opposed to Double dipping in rounds 2 and 3 for a 3T and a 5T.  Marvin Wilson in the 2nd and Shelvin in the 3rd could pose good value at positions of need.

If we can land a stud edge rusher in the 1st and a pocket collapsing 3T in the 2nd that could make a huge impact on this D.  I also would not be opposed to a top end Safety either if one posed good value.

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Frankie2Gunz

[oakdb36]

5 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

Yeah, Carr's stats this year are almost identical to Alex Smith's in 2017, the year before he was replaced. If @Frankie2Gunz were a chief fan, he'd probably have been arguing for Smith as a "building block QB" 🙄.

Both good years by good solid QBs. But nowhere near elite. Not dynamic. Being simply good is not enough when your team's whole indentity is as an offensive led team, which we are. 

We are in purgatory with Carr. It's not all his fault, but it's the truth. I'm sick of these 6-8 win years, constant off-season discussions about how Carr doesn't have enough help. Now it's just fix the defense...by the time we fix the defense Carr's deal is going to be up and i would guarantee he's going to want to break the bank again. I think Carr is good player that would probably be better off on a better built, more well rounded team. We aren't that right now. 

I don't know a way out of this cycle. But right now, we are the AFCs version of the Lions with Stafford. Except Stafford does have a few playoff appearances under his belt. Man just look at the AFC. A bunch of young, up and coming QBs. Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Watson, Allen, even Mayfield has improved. Lawrence, and Fields/Wilson will most likely be in the AFC, as well. Meanwhile Carr is 30 and has never played well in December.

You can replace Carr all you want but if the new QB has to deal with the same defensive ineptitude, the results will mostly be the same. Then what? We call for his head again?

[oakdb36]

31 minutes ago, dante9876 said:

To the wr topic. I think we be looking at guys like corey Davis,  Chris Conley and since it's a gruden lead team the vet AJ Green is definitely in play. We not paying no high price wr. 

Ruggs and Renfrow are starting. The question mark is can Edwards be that 3rd WR and what kind of competition do we bring for that spot. It could just be re-signing Agholor which i'm not really sold on. Otherwise, i agree with you they won't go after an expensive FA. Some 2nd tier type like Keelan Cole, Kendrick Bourne, Josh Reynolds or David Moore seems more likely.

[SilverNBlackFan]

8 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

You can replace Carr all you want but if the new QB has to deal with the same defensive ineptitude, the results will mostly be the same. Then what? We call for his head again?

We will be better equipped to build a competent defense with a QB on a rookie deal vs one in Carr who will most likely want a new big deal after this upcoming year. 

The defense doesn't have one player I can look at and say is a long term starter. Kwiakowski is the best player and he's a 2 down player. The cupboard is bare. I don't see it as an quick easy fix, as some do. I think we are years away from competing on that side of the ball. Carr's timeline, imo, doesn't match up with that. He's a good QB but not good enough to compensate for as many deficiencies as we have. He's also an overly reliant QB, who needs a high paid Oline in front of him to function. 

We go out and throw a big money deal at Leonard Williams, but what does that mean for the offense. We lose Kolton Miller? Can't resign Algholor? Then people will be complaining about how Carr doesn't have the help. 

Look at the top teams around the NFL and how they are built. They either have a transcendent talent at QB capable of overcoming roster deficiencies (Packers, Chiefs, Seahawks), either a young upstart QB still on a rookie deal which benefits the team putting a well rounded roster around them (Bills, Ravens, Dolphins, Browns, Cardinals), or you have the legendary proven winners at QB on their last legs and most are on below the market deals for QBs (Brees, Brady, Rivers, Big Ben). The only good team I see that is comparable to ours with Carr is the Titans. They paid a non elite QB in Tannehill (although he's better than Carr) and now their defense is shaky. I doubt they go far in the playoffs unless Henry goes full hulk mode again.

[dante9876]

 

43 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

Ruggs and Renfrow are starting. The question mark is can Edwards be that 3rd WR and what kind of competition do we bring for that spot. It could just be re-signing Agholor which i'm not really sold on. Otherwise, i agree with you they won't go after an expensive FA. Some 2nd tier type like Keelan Cole, Kendrick Bourne, Josh Reynolds or David Moore seems more likely.

I do think they will try to bring in a bigger(size not money)  vet. Ruggs and renfrow are smaller. It's good to have a vet in the wr room to. It's going to be a weird offseason to see how they spend and save money. It seems to be some very easy cuts on defense. And some restructure candidates on offense. 

[oakdb36]

2 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

We will be better equipped to build a competent defense with a QB on a rookie deal vs one in Carr who will most likely want a new big deal after this upcoming year. 

The defense doesn't have one player I can look at and say is a long term starter. Kwiakowski is the best player and he's a 2 down player. The cupboard is bare. I don't see it as an quick easy fix, as some do. I think we are years away from competing on that side of the ball. Carr's timeline, imo, doesn't match up with that. He's a good QB but not good enough to compensate for as many deficiencies as we have. He's also an overly reliant QB, who needs a high paid Oline in front of him to function. 

We go out and throw a big money deal at Leonard Williams, but what does that mean for the offense. We lose Kolton Miller? Can't resign Algholor? Then people will be complaining about how Carr doesn't have the help. 

Look at the top teams around the NFL and how they are built. They either have a transcendent talent at QB capable of overcoming roster deficiencies (Packers, Chiefs, Seahawks), either a young upstart QB still on a rookie deal which benefits the team putting a well rounded roster around them (Bills, Ravens, Dolphins, Browns, Cardinals), or you have the legendary proven winners at QB on their last legs and most are on below the market deals for QBs (Brees, Brady, Rivers, Big Ben). The only good team I see that is comparable to ours with Carr is the Titans. They paid a non elite QB in Tannehill (although he's better than Carr) and now their defense is shaky. I doubt they go far in the playoffs unless Henry goes full hulk mode again.

If the defense is years away, that rookie QB will have to carry the team. How likely is he to succeed in that situation? How long until fans call him a bust?

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

You can replace Carr all you want but if the new QB has to deal with the same defensive ineptitude, the results will mostly be the same. Then what? We call for his head again?

It's the Raider way, apparently, and why we've been in QB purgatory for the better part of 2 decades. 

Raiders fans crapped all over Carson Palmer when he was here. We don't like nice things, period. We saw the Chiefs get Mahomes and think QBs grow on trees and top draft QBs are surefire improvements...despite Mahomes being only 1 of 3 first round QBs in the last like decade to win one while the other two were drafted in....1998 and 2008. 

We also have this weird narrative that Carr isn't productive enough, despite Peyton Manning being the only QB in well over a decade to ride a statistically great season to a Superbowl. 

I do respect @SilverNBlackFan's point about Carr's contract status, but that does require a bit of projection into the unknown. However, there's little history backing the narrative of rookie contract QBs being the way to go, despite what appears to be firm conviction otherwise. Flacco won a Superbowl and the Ravens then proceeded to slowly fall apart under his Superbowl contract. Wilson and the Seahawks are hardly the Seahawks of the early-mid 2010's, largely based on Wilson's contract from getting that 1 Superbowl. Peyton Manning wasn't on a rookie deal with Denver, Brady hasn't been on a rookie deal since like 1980, Foles was not on a rookie deal, and Mahomes juat ate most of KCs cap space for the next decade. 

Say we drafted a rookie QB and got the proverbial "5 years". A rookie taking us to a Superbowl? Nah. Even Mahomes was in his 3rd year. Do people actually believe that some rookie is going to take the Raiders to a Superbowl and not be demanding a huge contract, probably bigger than a Carr extension? Fat chance. Rookie contracts have accounted for, what, 3 of the last 10 Superbowls? 2 of which are a decade or nearly a decade in the past? Meanwhile, team friendly deals (which, I think Carr would take, but am totally open to debate) have accounted for the vast majority of Superbowls over how long now? 

Even of the QBs listed in the referenced post (Allen, Jackson, Tua, Mayfield, Murray) all with the exception of Tua (as the lone rookie) would be demanding that next huge deal if they won the Superbowl this year, next year, the year after. The math in the contract argument just doesn't pass muster once you start breaking down fact against rhetoric. It becomes more of a narrative than anything else.

So you're absolutely right. We'd be 2 to 3 years behind schedule with a rookie QB, and if one got us a Superbowl within the next 5 years, it would likely be a short reign. We aren't the Dolphins. We haven't stockpiled draft picks to build entire units (we actually blow them on fancy trades that don't pan out) nor do we collect FAs or even scout guys well enough to have a firesale to start collecting those draft picks. That's not a recipe for drafting a guy and having success, and within a handful of seasons, the same folks here will be banging the table for the next shiny new toy. Why nobody wants to take the time to look at the whole picture instead of a favored bit here and there is beyond me. 

[oakdb36]

Carson Palmer was also a victim of a franchise reboot. I can't really blame them for moving on since the rough years ahead were a given. I don't think he was willing to waste his remaining years on a rebuilding project either. I don't remember every details of the situation but i guess we could have gotten more in return for a starting QB.

[Dessie]

4 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

Ruggs and Renfrow are starting. The question mark is can Edwards be that 3rd WR and what kind of competition do we bring for that spot. It could just be re-signing Agholor which i'm not really sold on. Otherwise, i agree with you they won't go after an expensive FA. Some 2nd tier type like Keelan Cole, Kendrick Bourne, Josh Reynolds or David Moore seems more likely.

Agreed. Ideally we would have seen enough of Ruggs & Edwards to say that if we can’t resign Agholor then we don’t need to get a WR in FA. As it is a 2nd tier type will definitely be needed.

[RaidersAreOne]

McDonald :

Three teams have increased their per game scoring through 15 games more than the #Raiders this season: Buffalo (10.1), Pittsburgh (8.2) and Green Bay (8.0). All are 12-3. The Raiders average 7.2 points more per game and are in the same place at 7-8.

[oakdb36]

1 hour ago, RaidersAreOne said:

McDonald :

Three teams have increased their per game scoring through 15 games more than the #Raiders this season: Buffalo (10.1), Pittsburgh (8.2) and Green Bay (8.0). All are 12-3. The Raiders average 7.2 points more per game and are in the same place at 7-8.

To add to that. 35 offensive TDs in 2019, 44 offensive TDs up to this point this season. (+ 2 defensive TDs last year, none this season).

[jimkelly02]

9 hours ago, dante9876 said:

To the wr topic. I think we be looking at guys like corey Davis,  Chris Conley and since it's a gruden lead team the vet AJ Green is definitely in play. We not paying no high price wr. 

I was begging to trade for Corey Davis for 2 years.... but now he’s played so well he’s basically guaranteed himSelf 12-14M per year.  He’s too expensive for us.

there’s a good chance we go after aj green because of the veteran angle plus his contract value has dropped so much in the last year that he’d be affordable.  But he can’t separate anymore and I wouldn’t want him.