Brady vs Jordan for 2nd greatest North American Athlete of all-time

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

It’s close but I feel like other hall of fame players wanted a shot at Jordan in the spirit of competition. 
 

meanwhile Brady goes to the NFC and Brees retires, and Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers demand trades. I’ll take Brady making hall of fame players cower in fear and run away as an advantage here.

[AngusMcFife]

15 hours ago, lancerman said:

Your premise is false. You are talking about an era in the late 80’s where Magic won 3 out of 4 MVP’s and was a First Team All NBA throughout to artificially expand your “era of dominance” argument for Jordan. 

Sorry but by 1987-88 it doesn't matter what you think the "consensus" was, Jordan was better than Magic. Slightly better offensively, WAY better defensively. Jordan literally doubled Magic's win shares (21.2 to 10.9). Jordan's PER was 31.2 and Magic's was 23.1. AND THAT DOESN"T INCLUDE DEFENSE. Jordan soundly beats Magic in these categories in the following years. It's not a debate. 

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There’s no objective measurement that Jordan was the best player hands down at the time and it’s certainly not the consensus of people that follow the NBA either.

This is pure BS. Pure ignorance, just to back up your boy Tom. Really, the argument is "there is no objective measure that shows any other player was close to Jordan from 1987-1993." Because there are plenty of objective measures that show Jordan was easily the best player in this time span.  
 

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A sustained period is a stupid premise to base a GOAT argument on when football is so much more situational. Brady was the best QB in 2007, 2010, 2017 and you could clearly argue 2016 he would have been MVP if he didn’t miss 4 games. 2008-2009 were in the middle of Brady’s prime and he got injured and missed two key years during his prime era, and then in the early 03-06 years he simply just did not have an offense to compete with another elite player who had two All Pro WR’s and the most potent receiving weapons in the league. 

Wow you've got a lot of excuses for your boy. NFL dominance isn't situational at all. Aaron Donald's dominance isn't situational. Gronkowski's isn't situational. JJ Watt pre-injury. LT's wasn't situational. Jerry Rice. Reggie White. Jim Brown. Need I go on? 

Gronkowski is a great example. There have been other great receiving TEs, but nobody combines receiving with elite blocking like Gronk. I don't really think Gronk has any peers at the TE position when healthy and in his prime. Brady, on the other hand, wasn't any better than Manning, Rodgers, Mahomes in their primes. He just had a long, fortunate career. 
 

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It’s an even more foolish argument when your premise relies on the two best players in the 80’s getting old and nobody at their level replacing them in the early 90’s during Jordan’s prime and that Brady played in the most stacked era for QB play with 3 other HOF guys who are top 10 all time including a top 3 in Manning. 

This is bad analysis. The reason Brady's era for QBs seems so stacked is because they have been changing the rules every year since 2004 to make passing easier. Drew Brees isn't a better player than Dan Fouts, he just played in pass happy system in a passing-friendly era. 

Also, the two best players that you are comparing Jordan to aren't even considered to be better than him. Are you claiming that Bird and/or Magic is a better player than Jordan? 

Think about your argument. "Jordan was way better than all his peers, therefor he didn't have any competition." Yeah, that's why he's the GOAT. 
 

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So you have a premise they you can’t objectively prove true, it’s kinda a crappy premise to say this is the key to the whole debate, and it really at best rests on one guy having the weakest era of competition in the last 40 years of the NBA and the other guy having arguably the strongest level of competition in the last 40 years of his sport. Your argument is both wrong and not very meaningful if it was true. 

The idea that the competition somehow got very weak in the 1990s in the NBA is the exact definition of a premise that you can't objectively prove to be true. What is your evidence to support your claim? Why did the quality of the sport drop so precipitously? Did young athletes just stop playing basketball for a 10 year period, and then start again? 
 

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The bigger problem is that reality contends with your argument. In their respective sports, Brady is pretty much by consensus considered the GOAT at this point. It’s not even a thing that’s danced around anymore. Most serious football analysts and players who commented on it have flat out said he’s the GOAT and the argument pretty much shut, including people who have been very resistant to Brady praise in the past. The ones that don’t are like Rob Parker and Barry McCockner like trolls who half their brand is being “the anti Brady” guy. That’s not true for Jordan in basketball. Even guys that believe Jordan is the GOAT will concede that Kareem and Lebron have real arguments of being the GOAT over Jordan. Like that’s not a controversial opinion that isn’t taken seriously. The fact is Brady has more firmly established himself as the GOAT in his sport and it’s going to take a Herculean effort for someone to overcome the distance he put between himself and everyone else. 

The media amplifies all sorts of false things. Open your eyes. That's such a poor argument: "Brady is the best because other people say so." Think for yourself. 

[dtait93]

16 hours ago, lancerman said:

Even guys that believe Jordan is the GOAT will concede that Kareem and Lebron have real arguments of being the GOAT over Jordan.

LOL

[seminoles1]

16 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

LOL

Why doesn't Kareem have an argument?

[lancerman]

2 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Why doesn't Kareem have an argument?

Because they are too young 

[ET80]

38 minutes ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

meanwhile Brady goes to the NFC and Brees retires, and Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers demand trades. I’ll take Brady making hall of fame players cower in fear and run away as an advantage here

Correlation doesn't equal causation, these items aren't because Brady is in the NFC...

- Brees isn't the first 38 year old QB to retire.

- Rodgers is his standoff due to deep seeded concerns on the direction of the FO (specifically, Jordan Love).

- Wilson "wants out" because he has been sacked more than any QB in a five year period and wants a say in those who will protect him up front; His was a public play to get more say at the table. (Even if it was, he wants to go to Chicago - an NFC team).

So, unless Brady influenced these things, it's pure coincidence. 

[ET80]

47 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

The media amplifies all sorts of false things. Open your eyes. That's such a poor argument: "Brady is the best because other people say so." Think for yourself. 

What if you thought about it ...and still come to this conclusion?

Because that's what I did.

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

7 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Correlation doesn't equal causation, these items aren't because Brady is in the NFC...

- Brees isn't the first 38 year old QB to retire.

- Rodgers is his standoff due to deep seeded concerns on the direction of the FO (specifically, Jordan Love).

- Wilson "wants out" because he has been sacked more than any QB in a five year period and wants a say in those who will protect him up front; His was a public play to get more say at the table. (Even if it was, he wants to go to Chicago - an NFC team).

So, unless Brady influenced these things, it's pure coincidence. 

Honestly ET it’s the offseason and I’m bored

[lancerman]

33 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Sorry but by 1987-88 it doesn't matter what you think the "consensus" was, Jordan was better than Magic. Slightly better offensively, WAY better defensively. Jordan literally doubled Magic's win shares (21.2 to 10.9). Jordan's PER was 31.2 and Magic's was 23.1. AND THAT DOESN"T INCLUDE DEFENSE. Jordan soundly beats Magic in these categories in the following years. It's not a debate. 

This is pure BS. Pure ignorance, just to back up your boy Tom. Really, the argument is "there is no objective measure that shows any other player was close to Jordan from 1987-1993." Because there are plenty of objective measures that show Jordan was easily the best player in this time span.  
 

Wow you've got a lot of excuses for your boy. NFL dominance isn't situational at all. Aaron Donald's dominance isn't situational. Gronkowski's isn't situational. JJ Watt pre-injury. LT's wasn't situational. Jerry Rice. Reggie White. Jim Brown. Need I go on? 

Gronkowski is a great example. There have been other great receiving TEs, but nobody combines receiving with elite blocking like Gronk. I don't really think Gronk has any peers at the TE position when healthy and in his prime. Brady, on the other hand, wasn't any better than Manning, Rodgers, Mahomes in their primes. He just had a long, fortunate career. 
 

This is bad analysis. The reason Brady's era for QBs seems so stacked is because they have been changing the rules every year since 2004 to make passing easier. Drew Brees isn't a better player than Dan Fouts, he just played in pass happy system in a passing-friendly era. 

Also, the two best players that you are comparing Jordan to aren't even considered to be better than him. Are you claiming that Bird and/or Magic is a better player than Jordan? 

Think about your argument. "Jordan was way better than all his peers, therefor he didn't have any competition." Yeah, that's why he's the GOAT. 
 

The idea that the competition somehow got very weak in the 1990s in the NBA is the exact definition of a premise that you can't objectively prove to be true. What is your evidence to support your claim? Why did the quality of the sport drop so precipitously? Did young athletes just stop playing basketball for a 10 year period, and then start again? 
 

The media amplifies all sorts of false things. Open your eyes. That's such a poor argument: "Brady is the best because other people say so." Think for yourself. 

I do think for myself. Brady has more titles than anyone else, more finals appearances than anyone else, has went to the semi finals like over 70% of his career, has more TD’s than anyone else, will retire with more yards than anyone else, has the 2nd most MVP’s, has the best longevity, is one of three guys with 50 TD’s in a season, is one of three guys that played before the 04 rule changes that has a top 10 career passer rating, broke the records for single season TD:INT, and most passes without an interception, has the two largest Super Bowl comebacks ever including one being the best statistical 4th quarter in a SB by a QB. He’s the best post snap read ever, probably neck and neck with Manning for best pre snap read, has the best pocket presence ever and in pocket mobility, he’s the most lethal short and mid range passer that ever lived and along with Welker helped revolutionize intermediate slot play, he has the highest single season QBR, he has double the amount of game winning drives in the playoffs as second place, he has more playoff wins over .500 as the second place guy has total. He is a top 5 INT% player and one of only two in the top 14 to have debuted pre 04 rule changes and only one in the top 8 to have debuted pre 2011. In what clown world is he not the clear GOAT, 

You’ve only said platitudes this whole thread and changed arguments when any data was presented. 

[dtait93]

2 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

Why doesn't Kareem have an argument?

Because he wasn't even the best player on his own team for the second half of his career in which 4 of his championships came. He quickly became the beta to Magic after his arrival, his last MVP award came in 1980, and wasn't FMVP once in his last 4 Finals victories.

CORRECTION: Kareem did win FMVP in 1985.

Edited May 12, 2021 by dtait93

[MWil23]

On 5/3/2021 at 7:16 PM, NeptunePenguins said:

We all know Gretzky is the greatest athlete of all-time

[dtait93]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Because they are too young 

False. See below

26 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Because he wasn't even the best player on his own team for the second half of his career in which 4 of his championships came. He quickly became the beta to Magic after his arrival, his last MVP award came in 1980, and wasn't FMVP once in his last 4 Finals victories.

 

 

[lancerman]

16 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

False. See below

 

Yeah wrong. At some point in the mid 80’s it shifted from Kareem to Magic but that was in the very last stretch of Kareem’s career and nobody would argue that Kareem wasn’t the most important early on 

[CP3MVP]

5 hours ago, lancerman said:

Absolutely. The Big 3 Celtics, and GSW were far superior competition than any team Jordan played when he was winning titles. Hell I wouldn’t have even bet on Jordan’s team when Durant joined the Warriors if they had a series. Jordan got like the perfect era to have his peak and run in.

If you kept everything about his teams the same but shifted it 10 years back he’s stuck competing with the Bird Celtics or Magic Lakers and isn’t winning 6 titles. You shift him 10 years forward and he’s competing with the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, the peak Dumcan era spurs and later on the peak Kobe era Lakers and the big 3 Celtics. 10 years after that and you are competing with the Lebron Heat and the GSW’s after that.

There’s a 0% chance he has the same success in either of those decades that he had in the 90’s. It wasn’t a coincidence that Jordan started winning when Magic, Bird and the Bad Boy Pistons all were getting old and phasing out of the league. 

That’s not to say Jordan isn’t the GOAT, but people leave out so much context when discussing him. 

I said it at the time and I’ll say it 25 years later. I never thought any of the teams the bulls faced in the finals/playoffs during their championship runs were great. I remember them hyping up Clyde during the 92 finals like it was some type of Celtics lakers matchup and laughing my butt off lol. I like Clyde, he’s a HOF but he’s not on that type of level. Same thing with the 90’s knicks who the media hypes up

[dtait93]

49 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Yeah wrong. At some point in the mid 80’s it shifted from Kareem to Magic but that was in the very last stretch of Kareem’s career and nobody would argue that Kareem wasn’t the most important early on 

It shifted in 1982 when Magic won Finals MVP and was given All-NBA honors while Kareem was not. So basically exactly as I said - "He quickly became the beta to Magic after his arrival." 

4 of Kareem's championships came during the span of 1982-1988 so let's compare the two to see who was the better player and driving force behind LA's championships.

Magic: 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's, 6 All-NBA First Teams, 1 All-NBA Second Team, and led the league in assists 4x.

Kareem: 0 MVP's, 1 Finals MVP, 2 All-NBA First Teams, 2 All-NBA Second Teams, and never led the league in any statistical category.

Magic also finished ahead of Kareem in MVP voting all 7 years.

Clearly Magic was the driving force behind the Lakers 4 championships. Not Kareem.

If you're not the primary driving force behind 4 of your 6 championships you have zero case for being the GOAT.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by dtait93