Brady vs Jordan for 2nd greatest North American Athlete of all-time

[7DnBrnc53]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

The bigger problem is that reality contends with your argument. In their respective sports, Brady is pretty much by consensus considered the GOAT at this point. It’s not even a thing that’s danced around anymore. Most serious football analysts and players who commented on it have flat out said he’s the GOAT and the argument pretty much shut, including people who have been very resistant to Brady praise in the past. The ones that don’t are like Rob Parker and Barry McCockner like trolls who half their brand is being “the anti Brady” guy. That’s not true for Jordan in basketball. Even guys that believe Jordan is the GOAT will concede that Kareem and Lebron have real arguments of being the GOAT over Jordan. Like that’s not a controversial opinion that isn’t taken seriously. The fact is Brady has more firmly established himself as the GOAT in his sport and it’s going to take a Herculean effort for someone to overcome the distance he put between himself and everyone else. 

That is because Brady is a QB, and QB's that win a lot of SB's tend to be wildly overrated (see Montana, Joe). I don't put a lot of credence in what those players say, especially the ones that work for the media. They have to say that because the league wants them to.

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

1990-1993 is the best period where you can say Jordan had a sustained period where he was the best player. 

True. And, when he came back from the diamond, he wasn't as good of a defender anymore (even though he was still a great scorer).

[thrILL!]

4 hours ago, lancerman said:

Even guys that believe Jordan is the GOAT will concede that Kareem and Lebron have real arguments of being the GOAT over Jordan.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by thrILL!

[SkippyX]

LeBron has ZERO argument.

He did not win a title in 7 years in Cleveland so he began his Super Team Run ****

• 4 years on the Heat with Bosh and James joining Wade.
  • They even had a fashion show on ESPN about it
• 3 years on the Cavs again with #1 pick Kyrie, James, and a forced trade for Kevin Love. (it fell apart by year 4)
• 3 years on the Lakers with AD.

He has lost in the finals 5 times in 9 tries with  Super Teams.

 

He is also playing in an era where guys get bought out and just go to one of the Super Teams to load up more.

• He also has 3 extra years since he skipped college so stat accumulation is *
  • He gets full credit for that in the record books, but Jordan winning an NCAA title at UNC  > LeBron playing in the NBA at 19-21.

He also plays in an arcade game league where triple doubles are close to meaningless so his inflated ball-hog assists and rebounds are nice numbers but nothing that makes him a GoaT.

 

One of the defining moments of LeBron's career was when he stayed in the game with a high ankle sprain so he could continue his 10 point streak. That's not a GoaT.

 

Jordan's teams were loaded at the end but it was Jordan on his own team, having paid his dues for 10 years.

• Pippen was a trade acquisition as a rookie who grew with him over 8 years before that last 3 year run.
• Rodman was an Antonio Brown level troublemaker who had burned lots of bridges on his way to Chicago.
  • At 34 his last All-Star game was 4 years before he got to Chicago.

Those last 3 Bulls teams were Super but they were not a player manipulated Super Team.

 

When Durant kicked his butt in the finals 2x it was because LeBron got out-Super Teamed

• Even though Durant made a legit move as a singular free agent to join the team he wanted, it was still loading up pretty good with Steph, Klay, and Draymond already there.

So if we are supposed to pity LeBron because the other Super Team had one extra super player then he is invalidated from GoaT because pity is not for the GoaT.

[SkippyX]

In summary:

Its nice that LeBron got to all those finals and won 4 so far.

You can think of him as a legend and an all-time great and all that.

If you favorably compare him to Jordan then we will continue to laugh about it.

[SkippyX]

LeBron also plays a style of game where he is physical in a sport that is no longer physical.

• Why he gets away with it, you'd have to ask the league office.

I do know that if he played that way in Jordan's day he would get 250 elbows and 10 fists to his head every year.

• Jordan did not really play that way and he still got it.

 

Its why LeBron theoretically playing and dominating at NFL TE is such a funny comment. He would have to take all the punishment. Gronk, Kelce, and Kittle get abused and that's not even counting all the blocking collisions.

 

I know I won't have convinced any of his LeBron > Jordan cultists. Its still fun to poke at them with reality anyway.

[lancerman]

The issue with all the is that Lebron was blocked from winning Finals during his career by Super Teams like the Big Three Celtics and Warriors 

[CP3MVP]

5 hours ago, lancerman said:

The issue with all the is that Lebron was blocked from winning Finals during his career by Super Teams like the Big Three Celtics and Warriors 

And I would take those teams over any team Jordan faced in the finals. 

[lancerman]

31 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

And I would take those teams over any team Jordan faced in the finals. 

Absolutely. The Big 3 Celtics, and GSW were far superior competition than any team Jordan played when he was winning titles. Hell I wouldn’t have even bet on Jordan’s team when Durant joined the Warriors if they had a series. Jordan got like the perfect era to have his peak and run in.

If you kept everything about his teams the same but shifted it 10 years back he’s stuck competing with the Bird Celtics or Magic Lakers and isn’t winning 6 titles. You shift him 10 years forward and he’s competing with the Kobe/Shaq Lakers, the peak Dumcan era spurs and later on the peak Kobe era Lakers and the big 3 Celtics. 10 years after that and you are competing with the Lebron Heat and the GSW’s after that.

There’s a 0% chance he has the same success in either of those decades that he had in the 90’s. It wasn’t a coincidence that Jordan started winning when Magic, Bird and the Bad Boy Pistons all were getting old and phasing out of the league. 

That’s not to say Jordan isn’t the GOAT, but people leave out so much context when discussing him. 

[seminoles1]

11 hours ago, SkippyX said:

LeBron has ZERO argument.

He did not win a title in 7 years in Cleveland so he began his Super Team Run ****

• 4 years on the Heat with Bosh and James joining Wade.
  • They even had a fashion show on ESPN about it
• 3 years on the Cavs again with #1 pick Kyrie, James, and a forced trade for Kevin Love. (it fell apart by year 4)
• 3 years on the Lakers with AD.

He has lost in the finals 5 times in 9 tries with  Super Teams.

 

He is also playing in an era where guys get bought out and just go to one of the Super Teams to load up more.

• He also has 3 extra years since he skipped college so stat accumulation is *
  • He gets full credit for that in the record books, but Jordan winning an NCAA title at UNC  > LeBron playing in the NBA at 19-21.

He also plays in an arcade game league where triple doubles are close to meaningless so his inflated ball-hog assists and rebounds are nice numbers but nothing that makes him a GoaT.

 

One of the defining moments of LeBron's career was when he stayed in the game with a high ankle sprain so he could continue his 10 point streak. That's not a GoaT.

 

Jordan's teams were loaded at the end but it was Jordan on his own team, having paid his dues for 10 years.

• Pippen was a trade acquisition as a rookie who grew with him over 8 years before that last 3 year run.
• Rodman was an Antonio Brown level troublemaker who had burned lots of bridges on his way to Chicago.
  • At 34 his last All-Star game was 4 years before he got to Chicago.

Those last 3 Bulls teams were Super but they were not a player manipulated Super Team.

 

When Durant kicked his butt in the finals 2x it was because LeBron got out-Super Teamed

• Even though Durant made a legit move as a singular free agent to join the team he wanted, it was still loading up pretty good with Steph, Klay, and Draymond already there.

So if we are supposed to pity LeBron because the other Super Team had one extra super player then he is invalidated from GoaT because pity is not for the GoaT.

Oh boy, here we go:

MJ also didn't win by himself. You're going to blame LeBron for his team being incompetent and him giving himself a chance to win championships? MJ couldn't beat the Celtics and he was fortunate enough to have Hall of Fame talent brought to him. LeBron had Larry Hughes, Ben Wallace, and geezer Shaq brought to him.

MJ lost in the first round 3x. If you're going to hold LeBron losing in the freaking Finals against him, why not hold losing in the first round against MJ? LeBron's teams have never lost in the 1st round.

So now it's also an asterisk that LeBron was good enough to go straight to the NBA? You're seriously turning that into a negative?

Did you know that from 1984-1989 (MJs stat-stuffing years), the NBA averaged more possessions per game than the last 5 NBA seasons? I mean obviously you didn't because otherwise you wouldn't spew this garbage. And it only gets worse the deeper you dig. So who exactly was taking advantage of an arcade game league? Compare their per-100 possession numbers if you want to. 

The fact you think that's a defining moment of LeBron's career his hilarious.

Why does it matter if it was a player made or front office made super team? Super teams have been around since the inception of the league. Regardless of how it happened and who made it happen, the teams exist. Faulting LeBron or today's players for actually utilizing their influence is ridiculous.

MJ got outsuperteamed by the Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers. Then they got old and Pippen came into his own. So...what exactly is your point here?

Edited May 12, 2021 by seminoles1

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

There’s a 0% chance he has the same success in either of those decades that he had in the 90’s. It wasn’t a coincidence that Jordan started winning when Magic, Bird and the Bad Boy Pistons all were getting old and phasing out of the league.

The 90s and early 2000s were garbage.

There is more talent now than there ever has been before, and MUCH more talent than the 90s.

[Ragnarok]

If we are talking about on a team level, then I say Brady.

Other NBA stars have won as many championships as Jordan.  No other NFL stars have won as many championships as Brady.  

[ET80]

16 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

Other NBA stars have won as many championships as Jordan.  No other NFL stars have won as many championships as Brady.  

Next closest is Charles Haley, with five.

If you only consider active players, next closest (3) are all former Brady teammates - Marcus Cannon, D'Onta Hightower, Devin McCourty, James White, Rob Gronkowski, Duron Harmon and Matt Slater. Of these names, the only one with a legitimate shot at another in the next year would be Gronkowski, and his 4th would also be Brady's 8th.

[Deadpulse]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Next closest is Charles Haley, with five.

If you only consider active players, next closest (3) are all former Brady teammates - Marcus Cannon, D'Onta Hightower, Devin McCourty, James White, Rob Gronkowski, Duron Harmon and Matt Slater. Of these names, the only one with a legitimate shot at another in the next year would be Gronkowski, and his 4th would also be Brady's 8th.

Vinatieri is still technically active with 4

[ET80]

Just now, Deadpulse said:

Vinatieri is still technically active with 4

Don't "well achktually" me with Adam Vinitieri... Nobody is signing a 48 y/o kicker who hasn't kicked a full season in two years. (Although, someone is signing a 34 year old QB who hasn't played football in a decade to play TE, so...)

Vinitieri is retired, he just doesn't know it yet.

[Deadpulse]

5 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Don't "well achktually" me with Adam Vinitieri... Nobody is signing a 48 y/o kicker who hasn't kicked a full season in two years. (Although, someone is signing a 34 year old QB who hasn't played football in a decade to play TE, so...)

Vinitieri is retired, he just doesn't know it yet.

We shall see.......