Brady vs Jordan for 2nd greatest North American Athlete of all-time

[AngusMcFife]

4 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

So do mvp matter or not. Jordan was only the MVP 5 times, so by your logic he was only The best player 5 times. 
 

 

I'm not interested in talking about MVPs. But they are a useful indicator. 

Bottom line is, Brady was simply not the best QB in the league for 17 out of his 20 total career seasons. From a production standpoint, he's certainly complied a lot of stats over the years, but was never consistently dominant. He was elite for maybe 3 years. 

Jordan, meanwhile, put up some of the most insanely dominant seasons from 1986-1993. Brady could never dream of putting together such a peak. 

[AngusMcFife]

3 hours ago, childofpudding said:

That doesn't matter. You said that "Jordan was better than every other player at every position."

That was incorrect, according to your logic. Jordan was not better than every other player at every position every season he played.

I mean, I think these comparisons across sports is dumb, but you just owned yourself with your own logic, so good job with that.

Please. Jordan was the best player from 1986 to 1993 without question. Later in his career he learned to dial back his usage in the regular season, but then increased it in the playoffs when needed. 

So he's not going to win every MVP every year, because it usually goes to the most accomplished player on the team with the most wins. 

Bottom line is Jordan was a much more dominant player. Brady can't come close to matching Jordan's peak from 1986-1993. Brady would have to have 5 or 6 years like 2007 in a row, but really Brady only had one year (2007) that is comparable to 7 or 8 Jordan years. 

[AngusMcFife]

3 hours ago, childofpudding said:

You think you can compare assists, rebounds and shooting percentage between centers and point guards? You clearly don't know anything about basketball.

Not every stat is one-to-one, but they are comparable. Now with advanced metrics you can calculate very precisely how much each rebound and assist is worth. 

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, lancerman said:

Brady plays a sport where only one player has more MVP's than him. Peyton Manning with 5. Everyone else has 3 or less. And there's a lot of people that would argue it became a meme that Peyton won a few that he shouldn't have (08 and 09 were very weak and 03 was a co MVP).

We don't have to talk about MVPs then. Just talk about dominant seasons. How many years did Brady have where Brady was an utterly dominant QB without any peer. Maybe one or two (2007, 2010)? 

Quote

 

Jordan played a sport where Kareem has 6 which is more than him and he's tied for 5 with Bill Russell. 

So as far as MVP's go, in their sports they are virtually in the same spot. In fact there are more players with 4 or more MVP's in the NBA than there are in the NFL. So that's a very dubious claim that it's "harder to win an MVP in the NBA. The criteria is very different. You can be the best at your position and a RB can break some amazing record and there is nothing you can do to stop the voters from giving it to them. You also can miss more games in the NBA and still get the MVP.

MVPs aren't that interesting to talk about. Just look at Jordan's peak from 1986-1993 and tell how Brady is in the same conversation as him. 

Brady was an excellent QB who was fortunate to be on great teams and has had an incredibly long and healthy career. 

But let's not pretend like he was just eviscerating the competition like Jordan was, physically and mentally, and was essentially without peer.

Quote

In 2016 Brady was probably the best QB or debateable with Ryan and missing 4 games was held against him

Maybe Brady shouldn't have cheated if he didn't want to be suspended 4 games. Seems like that's a point against Brady. I don't recall Jordan cheating. 

[RavensfanRD]

Brady is the GOAT because his is the only sport where its one and done in the playoffs.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

I get that this isn't a hockey forum so I wouldn't expect people to really appreciate Gretzky's greatness here, but it's kind of amazing how underappreciated he is even on this forum.

The guy still holds NHL records which will most likely never be broken, and most of the stats that he's #1 in are by such a freakin country mile it's amazing. Gretzky was such a cheat code they had to split up his goals and assists into two separate fantasy hockey players.

Like I'm sorry but Jordan is comparable to Lebron and maybe a few others. Brady is the solidified GOAT in football but I don't even think he comes close to accomplishing the greatness that Gretzky accomplished.

And, like others have mentioned, this has to be solely about team sports, otherwise we're throwing in athletes like Tiger, Serena and Simone Biles into the mix as well.

[Shady Slim]

On 5/9/2021 at 3:56 AM, Dbrog24 said:

Literally what I said... Not sure where you're coming from on this

idk man with like how dismissive you were of gretzky’s case 

[JAF-N72EX]

I get the appeal of these type of topics (and I know it'll never end), but I don't understand the point of it either. Trying to compare one player's impact from one sport to another is as useless as debating whether Lebron would make it in the NFL.

[7DnBrnc53]

4 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

Brady is the GOAT because his is the only sport where its one and done in the playoffs.

Actually, that can work the other way. You only get one chance to beat Brady (or his team. I thought that football was a team sport, but I guess I was wrong), so it was easier for him to win. Six teams had four tries at beating Jordan, and eleven teams had four tries at beating Bill Russell, and they still couldn't. So, if you look at it that way, they are greater than Brady.

[childofpudding]

5 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Bottom line is, Brady was simply not the best QB in the league for 17 out of his 20 total career seasons. From a production standpoint, he's certainly complied a lot of stats over the years, but was never consistently dominant. He was elite for maybe 3 years. 

Lol. Well this was a waste of time.

Edited May 10, 2021 by childofpudding

[childofpudding]

5 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Not every stat is one-to-one, but they are comparable. Now with advanced metrics you can calculate very precisely how much each rebound and assist is worth. 

No, those stats really aren't comparable between basketball players in different positions. Your advanced metrics line is just gibberish.

[lancerman]

5 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

We don't have to talk about MVPs then. Just talk about dominant seasons. How many years did Brady have where Brady was an utterly dominant QB without any peer. Maybe one or two (2007, 2010)? 

MVPs aren't that interesting to talk about. Just look at Jordan's peak from 1986-1993 and tell how Brady is in the same conversation as him. 

Brady was an excellent QB who was fortunate to be on great teams and has had an incredibly long and healthy career. 

But let's not pretend like he was just eviscerating the competition like Jordan was, physically and mentally, and was essentially without peer.

Maybe Brady shouldn't have cheated if he didn't want to be suspended 4 games. Seems like that's a point against Brady. I don't recall Jordan cheating. 

Jordan wasn’t the undisputed best player in the league until Bird got injured and Magic got AIDS. And then even when he was in the middle of his title run he wasn’t the clear best player every year. 
 

Also considering Jordan won all his titles after he waited for Pippen to join, got an 11x champion coach and later got one of the best defensive players ever.... kinda suspect to talk about Brady having a good team. Especially when Brady won with entirely different casts across his career and two different coaches

Yes Jordan was incredible in the 90’s in his sport, but his myth is much bigger than the reality at this. 
 

Brady has a much clearer claim to being the best QB of all time than Jordan the best basketball player. Wilt was a far better athlete, Kareem was more successful by nearly every accolade, Lebron is ballpark. Brady’s biggest competitions in this department are Manning and Montana who both have huge gaps in certain areas when comparing careers 

[lancerman]

38 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Actually, that can work the other way. You only get one chance to beat Brady (or his team. I thought that football was a team sport, but I guess I was wrong), so it was easier for him to win. Six teams had four tries at beating Jordan, and eleven teams had four tries at beating Bill Russell, and they still couldn't. So, if you look at it that way, they are greater than Brady.

That’s a bad way to look at it. We can simply look at playoff records and clearly see that of it was a one and done sport Jordan would have less titles while two of Brady’s best teams ever were knocked out in big upsets against teams who would not have won a best of series. Jordan was on the most talented teams in his era when he won titles and he played a system that was designed to ensure the best team came out of series. Brady played in a system that was designed to have a dynamic anything can happen playoff. For every time it benefitted him you have more examples like 05, 06, 07, 09, 10, 12, where they lost as favorites. In fact it probably only benefitted Brady in 01. The 03, 04, 14, 16 teams were all the best in football or in a debate with the other best team. The 18 and 20 teams got it together at the end and by the time the playoffs came they were beating everyone decisively (only the 2018 Chiefs playoff game was close and the Pats beat them the exact same way earlier in the year). So it definitely was a net negative for Brady and Jordan’s system was a net positive for him. 

Also not for nothing there is a reason why Basketball has an 11 title dynasty, a 5 title dynasty, a 6 title dynasty, another 5 title dynasty and then Lebron won 4 rings across his career and just recently we saw the same two teams in the Finals 4 consecutive years in a row (something that never happened in the SB era). And that's not even the most common Finals match up ever in the NBA (Lakers vs Celtics has happened 12 times). Meanwhile in the SB era we've had a 4 title Steelers dynasty, a 4 title Niner's dynasty, a 3 title Cowboys dynasty, and depending on how you want to split it up either a long 6 title Pats dynasty or two 3 title Pats dynastys. Basketball is more conducive to dynasties. And football if anything is in it's least dynasty friendly era ever. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by lancerman

[7DnBrnc53]

9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

That’s a bad way to look at it. We can simply look at playoff records and clearly see that of it was a one and done sport Jordan would have less titles while two of Brady’s best teams ever were knocked out in big upsets against teams who would not have won a best of series. Jordan was on the most talented teams in his era when he won titles and he played a system that was designed to ensure the best team came out of series. Brady played in a system that was designed to have a dynamic anything can happen playoff. For every time it benefitted him you have more examples like 05, 06, 07, 09, 10, 12, where they lost as favorites. In fact it probably only benefitted Brady in 01. The 03, 04, 14, 16 teams were all the best in football or in a debate with the other best team. The 18 and 20 teams got it together at the end and by the time the playoffs came they were beating everyone decisively (only the 2018 Chiefs playoff game was close and the Pats beat them the exact same way earlier in the year). So it definitely was a net negative for Brady and Jordan’s system was a net positive for him. 

When Brady did win a title, though, he only had to win one SB game. Jordan had to beat a team four times. And, they weren't that much more talented than some of the Finals opponents they played (92 Blazers, 93 Suns, and 96 Sonics are examples).

Brady only needed one game to beat a 9-7 and 10-6 Giant team, and he couldn't do it (the latter came when they had the most prolific scoring offense ever). Also, Barry McCockiner (in his recent video about Brady on You Tube) showed some good stats at the end of his video that show how much easier Brady has had it compared to his contemporaries.

[lancerman]

8 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

When Brady did win a title, though, he only had to win one SB game. Jordan had to beat a team four times. And, they weren't that much more talented than some of the Finals opponents they played (92 Blazers, 93 Suns, and 96 Sonics are examples).

Brady only needed one game to beat a 9-7 and 10-6 Giant team, and he couldn't do it (the latter came when they had the most prolific scoring offense ever). Also, Barry McCockiner (in his recent video about Brady on You Tube) showed some good stats at the end of his video that show how much easier Brady has had it compared to his contemporaries.

Jordan never got taken to a game 7. His teams were clearly the best of that era and the finals results proved that. Brady was effectively in a game 7 every SB. I mean the fact is, if the first game decided the Finals, Jordan loses his first and last and is immediately down to 4 titles. That's not even considering other rounds of the playoffs. Brady if he was given a 7 game series would take the 07 team and get to figure out how to consistently beat the Giants. If he was given a 7 series Gronk gets healthy at some point in the 2011 series and comes back and they likely again beat the Giants rather decisively. Brady if he gets a 7 game series doesn't go out against the Jets in 2010. 

Like just run the numbers, Jordan's system clearly benefitted him and he'd have less titles if he was in Brady's system while Brady would have more if he was in Jordan's system. Basketball simply produces more successful dynasty teams because it's designed to. 

Also Barry McCockiner is a known a racist who has a weird agenda against Brady and nonstop complains about him on twitter. He's not a very credible person in nearly in respects.