Brady vs Jordan for 2nd greatest North American Athlete of all-time

[Blackstar12]

6 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Offensive foul on Ginobili!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ifeelasleep]

On 5/9/2021 at 10:29 AM, AngusMcFife said:

Djokovic's peak will never compare to Federer's (2004-2007). Yes it will look like Djokovic may surpass some of Federer's numbers for their entire careers, but will never compare to Federer's greatness. 

He will obliterate ALL his numbers, not just pass them, he already passed most of the important ones.
federers peak was brilliant but it came when djokovic was in his 17-21 age seasons. He won half his major tally when djokovic wasnt a threat, Djokovic had to consistently beat both federer and nadal at their peak for his acheivements.

Fed: three years of winning three majors

Djokovic: two years of winning three majors

ALOT More masters 1000, if you know about tennis other than the majors you know how important these are. if you go by slams he is only 2 slams away in 6 years less, he still has years where he might win three a year, he has a chance this year.

Positive head to head

4-1 in grand slam finals

11-6 in grand slam matches

13-6 Grand slam matches

Federer has a negative record against both nadal and djokovic, yes his style is impeccable and he is my favorite but people want their favorite to be the best, but to be the best in tennis you have to prove in on the court. Djokovic has beaten fed time and time again he stopped his reign more than Rafa. its a 1v1 sport.

Federer suffers from the same thing as Jordan, even if someone were to come along thats objectively better the "iconic" larger than life spectacle and nostalgia prevails. Ironically for Federer that hypotetical player came during his career and people cant let go and accept it.

[AngusMcFife]

4 hours ago, childofpudding said:

Your "evidence" that Jordan was the best player in 1986 was a quote from another player. Therefore, my evidence that Brady is the GOAT QB is a quote from several other players. 

I am only using the logic that you used, so if you think that's kindergarten logic, well...

Why don't you break down their stats, then.

For instance, in 1986 Jordan scored 37.1 points per game, shooting 48.3% and averaging 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks. 

Jordan's PER at 29.8 was about 3 higher than the next highest rating (Magic), and led the league in Win shares as well.

A statistical analysis shows that Jordan was the best player by 1986, and he crushed the rest of the league in scoring while shooting above 50%, playing lock down defense, and crushing in advanced categories like PER and win shares from 1996-1993. 

Because people didn't know how to interpret basketball statistics in the 1980s, their assessment of how good players wasn't very good. Current knowledge reveals that Jordan was easily the best from 1986-1993, and it really isn't close. 

[AngusMcFife]

9 minutes ago, ifeelasleep said:

He will obliterate ALL his numbers, not just pass them, he already passed most of the important ones.
federers peak was brilliant but it came when djokovic was in his 17-21 age seasons. He won half his major tally when djokovic wasnt a threat, Djokovic had to consistently beat both federer and nadal at their peak for his acheivements.

Fed: three years of winning three majors

Djokovic: two years of winning three majors

ALOT More masters 1000, if you know about tennis other than the majors you know how important these are. if you go by slams he is only 2 slams away in 6 years less, he still has years where he might win three a year, he has a chance this year.

Positive head to head

4-1 in grand slam finals

11-6 in grand slam matches

13-6 Grand slam matches

Federer has a negative record against both nadal and djokovic, yes his style is impeccable and he is my favorite but people want their favorite to be the best, but to be the best in tennis you have to prove in on the court. Djokovic has beaten fed time and time again he stopped his reign more than Rafa. its a 1v1 sport.

Federer suffers from the same thing as Jordan, even if someone were to come along thats objectively better the "iconic" larger than life spectacle and nostalgia prevails. Ironically for Federer that hypotetical player came during his career and people cant let go and accept it.

Comparing Federer and Djokovic head to head is silly.

Djokovic is 6 years younger than Federer. Of course he has a huge advantage head to head given that a tennis player's prime is at age 24.

All you can do is compare them against their peers. And Federer eviscerated his peers like no other from 2004-2007. 

Djokovic gets the award for sustained excellence, but he never shown as brightly as young Federer.  

EDIT: Nadal is 5 years younger, same issue.

Edited May 11, 2021 by AngusMcFife

[ifeelasleep]

Yet in 6 fewer years he has achieved more on almost all counts.
Djokovic 2011 and 2015 are probably better than any of federers seasons. Two years of +40 straight match wins, holding all 4 grand slams at the same time and winning three majors.

The two remaining slams could easily go down this year, that would equal federers 3 best seasons in a 10 year span. for me sustained excellence against all peers is the most important part, especially when Roger and Rafa were there as rivals.

He can potentially get to 30 slams will that be enough? i think 25 is the floor, or will you hang on to those four peak years.

Edited May 11, 2021 by ifeelasleep

[CP3MVP]

6 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Comparing Federer and Djokovic head to head is silly.

Djokovic is 6 years younger than Federer. Of course he has a huge advantage head to head given that a tennis player's prime is at age 24.

All you can do is compare them against their peers. And Federer eviscerated his peers like no other from 2004-2007. 

Djokovic gets the award for sustained excellence, but he never shown as brightly as young Federer.  

EDIT: Nadal is 5 years younger, same issue.

2004-2007 was a garbage era of tennis. Once Nadal and Djoker entered their primes fed was never the same 

[AngusMcFife]

8 hours ago, ifeelasleep said:

Yet in 6 fewer years he has achieved more on almost all counts.
Djokovic 2011 and 2015 are probably better than any of federers seasons. Two years of +40 straight match wins, holding all 4 grand slams at the same time and winning three majors.

The two remaining slams could easily go down this year, that would equal federers 3 best seasons in a 10 year span. for me sustained excellence against all peers is the most important part, especially when Roger and Rafa were there as rivals.

He can potentially get to 30 slams will that be enough? i think 25 is the floor, or will you hang on to those four peak years.

Even if Novak wins 25, I would still say that Federer was the best I ever saw at his peak. Federer had 3 straight years of winning ~95% of matches, and Novak only had two years of winning over 90% (92% in 2011, and 93% in 2015). Federer's 237 consecutive weeks ranked no. 1 is pretty much unrivaled.  

Also, maybe you should wait until Novak actually wins those slams before putting them on his trophy shelf.

The debate over peak vs longevity is subjective, though, so I can respect someone who maybe isn't quite as talented excelling for a long career. 

But for me, if someone is to be called GOAT, he needs to have a transcendent peak that was without rival. Hence I favor Federer and Jordan over Novak and Brady. I just can't anoint someone GOAT if I've seen a player better than them.  

[7DnBrnc53]

On 5/10/2021 at 7:50 PM, AngusMcFife said:

70s Steelers also had steroids 

Actually, a lot of teams had guys on roids during that time. Also, I think that some of the Steeler offensive linemen were the only ones on the team that were using them.

And, it didn't start with Pittsburgh: https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3866837

I also heard rumors about the 80's and 90's 49ers using them. There was a rumor about Renaldo Nehemiah going to BALCO for a "nutritional deficiency":

https://web.archive.org/web/20040804162745/http://www.49erhaters.com/balco.html

Edited May 12, 2021 by 7DnBrnc53

[lancerman]

14 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Ok so now it’s not about winning. Jordan’s bulls in the 90’s had better coaching and better teams than the stars he was beating. 
 

Jordan has zero case as ranking higher than Bird in 1986.

Honestly any person that thinks it’s a sound take that Jordan was better than Bird in 1986 shouldn’t really be talking about basketball. Bird giving him props when he himself was arguably having the highest peak a player ever had is not proof Jordan was better. In fact it’s one of the more preposterous assertions on this board.

If you want to say Jordan was clearly the best every year fron 91-93 and then when he came back for 3 years sure... have at (even that latter half of debateable). However in the early to mid 80’s Bird was clearly the best player, Magic eclipsed in later in the 80’s, and Jordan really didn’t take over until both were aging out of the league . Everyone know Jordan was going to be great, but that’s like saying Lebron was clearly the best from 2003 on when Kobe and Nash were tearing it up in the mid 2000’s. In fact, Id say Lebron from 2009- 2017 had a longer more sustained stretch as the leagues clear best player than Jordan did in his run. Like at least then the years he didn’t win MVP it felt like the league just didn’t want to go with the boring option. Jordan not winning early in his career was because he simply wasn’t good enough compared to the other guys. 
 

Again I think Jordan is GOAT basketball player, but he’s been so deified by people who grew up with him in the 90’s or people who were born just as his run was ending and spent their lives hearing about his heroics that the narrative and myth around Jordan is greater than the reality of what he actually was. Jordan was the best talent ever but he also got lightning in a bottle with the best modern coach, the most stacked team of the 90’s and got to peak just as two megastars that dominated the sport and could rival him were declining and then his era did not produce the same quality of competition the 80’s had as far as super dominant teams. So there was a lot of fortune that allowed him to thrive the way he did that people just kinda gloss over. 
 

Meanwhile Brady had his prime in a league with Manning, Rodgers, and Brees who could all be considered top talent of all time and at many points had championship caliber contending teams along with being in a sport and era that was designed to prevent what he accomplished. 
 

It’s harder in the NFL to get the results Brady did than it is for an NBA player to get the results Jordan did. In 100 years there isn’t a QB even close to Brady accomplishment wise. Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Lebron are all in the same vicinity as far as accomplishments. While talent wise Wilt, Lebron’s and Kareem are all ballpark with Jordan. The sport is designed for the best player to clearly dominate. 

[childofpudding]

11 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Why don't you break down their stats, then.

For instance, in 1986 Jordan scored 37.1 points per game, shooting 48.3% and averaging 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 4 steals, and 2 blocks. 

Bird had higher 2P% (55% to 49%), higher 3P% (40% to 18%), higher FT% (91% to 86%), higher eFG% (56% to 48%), higher TS% (61% to 56%), more rebounds per game (9.2 to 5.2), more assists per game (7.6 to 4.6), and a higher net rating (+17 to +13).

Magic was also better than Jordan in every category above except FT% and he also had higher WS/48.

[AngusMcFife]

37 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

Bird had higher 2P% (55% to 49%), higher 3P% (40% to 18%), higher FT% (91% to 86%), higher eFG% (56% to 48%), higher TS% (61% to 56%), more rebounds per game (9.2 to 5.2), more assists per game (7.6 to 4.6), and a higher net rating (+17 to +13).

Magic was also better than Jordan in every category above except FT% and he also had higher WS/48.

Yes because Bird and Magic were surrounded by HOFers, they had a much easier time of it. Obviously their %s are going to be better when they are not the only good player on the team. Jordan was the lone star surrounded by nobodies. The fact that you are intentionally leaving this out of your analysis suggests is telling. You don't know that context matters?

I mean, you aren't even mentioning defense, which is 50% of the game. Bird had his moments defensively but is pathetic compared to Jordan. Magic Johnson wasn't particularly good on D at all. 

[lancerman]

3 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yes because Bird and Magic were surrounded by HOFers, they had a much easier time of it. Obviously their %s are going to be better when they are not the only good player on the team. Jordan was the lone star surrounded by nobodies. The fact that you are intentionally leaving this out of your analysis suggests is telling. You don't know that context matters?

I mean, you aren't even mentioning defense, which is 50% of the game. Bird had his moments defensively but is pathetic compared to Jordan. Magic Johnson wasn't particularly good on D at all. 

You said a look at the stats showed Jordan was better. He broke down the stats and Bird and Magic **** all over him.

Anybody who thinks Jordan was the clear best player in 1986 loses any credibility discussing basketball. It’s a laughable proposition. 

And Jordan had the best team in the NBA when he was winning MVP’s left and right in the 90’s and winning titles, so if that’s your counter for Bird and Magic.... it’s a pretty bad one 

[AngusMcFife]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

You said a look at the stats showed Jordan was better. He broke down the stats and Bird and Magic **** all over him.

Anybody who thinks Jordan was the clear best player in 1986 loses any credibility discussing basketball. It’s a laughable proposition. 

And Jordan had the best team in the NBA when he was winning MVP’s left and right in the 90’s and winning titles, so if that’s your counter for Bird and Magic.... it’s a pretty bad one 

You have to analyze stats in the proper context, not just read a list of numbers like a moron.

Their defense is the obvious deciding factor. Even if Bird and Magic were slightly better offense players than Jordan in the 1986-7 season (which I'm not convinced of), Jordan was such a superior defender that he easily erases any gap between them. Bird and Magic were just not that athletically gifted, they couldn't lock down opposing players at all. 

[ET80]

21 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I haven't seen a dunk in a bit - well done, I need to get back on this.

[MWil23]

3 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I haven't seen a dunk in a bit - well done, I need to get back on this.

...can we do bat flips as well?