Do you think teams can “ruin” Qb’s?

[NeptunePenguins]

I think Carr was in such a terrible situation early on in Houston that it likely did ruin his NFL starting career. To take the amount of hits he did and still be standing is a feat in itself. I am not sure if any QB would have fared well in that situation. Andrew Luck also came to mind, and while he did produce and lead his team to the playoffs several times, the protection he had was pretty awful, and I think led to the early retirement. He was ruined, but he also did produce some nice seasons. 

[biggie.]

4 hours ago, TitanSlim said:

I’m forever going to think the Titans “ruined” Mariota to a degree by going through 4 OCs in his 5 years here, while also never developing an offense that was similar or close to the one he ran in college that made him one of the most efficient QBs in NCAA history.

He probably would’ve busted here anyway because of his durability but it’s forever a “what if” for me.

Mariota's biggest problem is that he procresses his reads slower than a dial-up modem.

[SDotNova]

As a Jets fan, I know the answer to this question. Hell yeah an organization can ruin a QB.

Here’s the blueprint:

1) put a QB in a system that doesn’t highlight that QB’s best attributes

2) surround the young QB with practice squad level players at the receiver position

 3) have a porous OL - this will ensure your QB is always running for his life

4) don’t hire a QB coach

Edited May 21, 2021 by SDotNova

[Slappy Mc]

35 minutes ago, SDotNova said:

As a Jets fan, I know the answer to this question. Hell yeah an organization can ruin a QB.

Here’s the blueprint:

1) put a QB in a system that doesn’t highlight that QB’s best attributes

2) surround the young QB with practice squad level players at the receiver position

 3) have a porous OL - this will ensure your QB is always running for his life

4) don’t hire a QB coach

 

I absolutely think a team can ruin a QB with potential to be "good/great". I personally the think biggest one recently was Andrew Luck. I really believe Andrew Luck had the talent and poise to be a HoFer. I also agree that bad QBs can be propped up by systems. Jared Goff fits this bill for me. Before Sean McVay, Goff looked like a bonafide bust.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Slappy Mc

[NYRaider]

Yes. If you look at recent draft history almost every QB that panned out went into a good situation while almost every QB that busted went to a bad situation. 

[JAF-N72EX]

There's not a right or wrong answer here since it's essentially a hypothetical question that could never be proven either way.

[RamblinMan99]

12 hours ago, RuskieTitan said:

I disagree, one could argue that Devin Funchess is the reason that the team is getting ruined.

*Ducks and runs*

I didn’t mean that literally though.  
 

Green Bay wouldn’t be anything without Rodgers but he has made the air toxic there.  
 

He by all means “owns” the team.

[Kip Smithers]

Short answer, yes. Though as with a lot of things there is a lot of nuances Involved. So it’s never just one thing.

[ClutchDJ]

16 hours ago, pwny said:

Jeff Garcia is a pretty great example of this in motion.

He was a pretty good QB in SF in their west coast offense. Dennis Erickson comes in and changed the offense, and he’s terrible. He goes to Cleveland to start and play in a system that’s about as different from the West Coast offense as one can imagine and he’s complete garbage again. Goes to Detroit, again not playing West Coast offense and he’s awful in his few games there. Then he goes to Philly, and when he’s tasked with playing Andy Reid runs west coast concepts and suddenly he’s an effective player again. Then he goes to the Bucs and they run more west coast concepts and he’s again an efficient QB.

Three straight teams decided to not run concepts the guy was good at and instead asked him to do things that showed off his limitations. Meanwhile the three stops where he’s put into an offense that he can do the things that he’s good at and hides the things he’s not good at, he’s an effective player.

Throw any player into the start of their career with the string of coaches and misfit offense that Garcia had for three years, and a guy is going to look like a complete bust and never really be given a chance to prove otherwise.

This just sounds like Garcia was just a limited player than a player that was or in the process of being ruined.

[ClutchDJ]

7 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Yes. If you look at recent draft history almost every QB that panned out went into a good situation while almost every QB that busted went to a bad situation. 

Who’s to say the panned out QBs made their situations look better than they actually did while the bust QBs made their situations look worse than they actually did, though?

Edited May 21, 2021 by ClutchDJ

[NJC33]

Sure, but not to the extent or frequency that the media / fans reach for. It's easy to scapegoat the surrounding cast when your initial evaluation of a QB doesn't come to fruition -- which isn't to say it never happens. I think the true 'greats' are superior mentally and thus, in the long run, capable of overcoming any adversity attributed to the organization. In some cases it may take a change of scenery, new coach, etc... but 'greatness' typically prevails more often than not.

[pwny]

36 minutes ago, ClutchDJ said:

This just sounds like Garcia was just a limited player than a player that was or in the process of being ruined.

The vast majority of QBs are limited. Not every QB is Peyton Manning. How teams support those players and choose to work around those limitations goes a long way towards creating success. Team’s that fail to do that typically ruin a guy’s career.

If Garcia had been signed out of the CFL to play in Cleveland for the first four years in that offense and then went to Detroit after that, he would have washed out of the league without a second thought like so many others do. There’d be no 4x Pro Bowls appearances to his credit, he’d simply be a footnote in the long list of Cleveland failures at QB and nothing more. 

[soflbillsfan]

To me this league is qb needy now no matter what. If your team doesnt have the success to win now and is picking top 5 to 10 the main reason is because the organization is bad at that time and no real qb on the roster. If you move up it can be a different story. With the new CBA that was put in play in 2013 it allowed teams to reach on qbs that wouldnt be taken so early but because the risk financially is so small they could take the risk and take qbs earlier then they should be going.

Do you think Sam Darnold could have succeeded had he been drafted to a team that has a coach who knows how to work with young qbs to take them to the next level, do you have an oline to protect the guy you expect to be your franchise qb, do you have some weapons to give him that he can count on? Then on the defensive side do you have that side to count on to keep things close? To me Darnold was never given that opportunity to show his true potential from out of college because of this, the team gave him Crowder in 2019 as an offensive weapon, no real oline, and Leveon Bell. In 2020 they finally got a GM to come in an build up the needs and Becton was the guy this is the first non qb offensive player taken in the 1st rd since Nick Mangold and Ferguson who were taken in the early 2000s. Do I think Darnold would be a stud probably not but do I think he could have had a better career absolutely.

On the flip side you have the Chiefs who just went to the playoffs again with one of the best offensive mind hc in the game, some weapons in Hill and Kelce, a respectable oline with key pieces there. They move up in the draft and take Mahomes in which he sits a year to then be given the offense. Did we expect him to be a stud when he was drafted no do you think he would have been able to do what he does now on the jets that year probably not as well as he has been for the chiefs he could have been a bit better then what Darnold had to offer but he would likely have struggled to have success. So to me the QB can elevate a team in the right situation and a Qb can fail in the wrong situation but if the team gives that player every situation to succeed and still doesnt show his worth then it is the qb. Alex Smith was meh in San Fran and Reid made Smith a respectable qb so his impression on Qbs could be argued that he helped Mahomes become who he is and likely wouldnt be seeing that same Mahomes on any other team.

[ClutchDJ]

20 minutes ago, pwny said:

The vast majority of QBs are limited. Not every QB is Peyton Manning. How teams support those players and choose to work around those limitations goes a long way towards creating success. Team’s that fail to do that typically ruin a guy’s career.

If Garcia had been signed out of the CFL to play in Cleveland for the first four years in that offense and then went to Detroit after that, he would have washed out of the league without a second thought like so many others do. There’d be no 4x Pro Bowls appearances to his credit, he’d simply be a footnote in the long list of Cleveland failures at QB and nothing more. 

Not limited in a sense where they provide only adequate play in certain schemes. I believe the top 8 QBs(whoever that may be to you)as of right now can provide at least above-average play in any scheme you throw at them. You can also say how a player can enhance the situation around them & is it himself that is making the situation look bad.

 

An organization can put a cap on a players’ ceiling, sure, but there’s never been a time where an organization 100% prevented a player from being a competent player. I think that’s a full on cop-out. I believe it’s just that player’s potential was never that good to begin with.

 

 

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, ClutchDJ said:

Who’s to say the panned out QBs made their situations look better than they actually did while the bust QBs made their situations look worse than they actually did, though?

I mean just to give one example Mahomes got to sit for a year under Andy Reid and then immediately stepped into an offense that featured Hill, Watkins, Kelce, Hunt on a team that made the playoffs the previous two seasons. While Josh Rosen had to step in and start from day one with almost zero talent around him.