Top 12 QBs in the league.

[RayLew52]

33 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

For me it's also about how long. Dak has to maintain for at least a season first.

Has Herbert of Josh Allen been elite outside of one season?

[BrownLeader]

1 hour ago, RayLew52 said:

Has Herbert of Josh Allen been elite outside of one season?

yes.

I think Dak played out of his mind to start last season and has looked great coming back. But just don't agree that he's been elite most of his career as Matts stated.

[Matts4313]

PLAYER	TEAM	DVOA RANK	DVOA (%)
M. Stafford	LAR	1	35.2
P. Mahomes	KC	2	26.9
D. Prescott	DAL	3	26.8
T. Brady	TB	4	26.1
K. Murray	ARI	5	23.9
R. Wilson	SEA	6	18.4
L. Jackson	BAL	7	17.1
J. Herbert	LAC	8	12.9
A. Rodgers	GB	9	12.2
D. Jones	NYG	10	11.7
K. Cousins	MIN	11	10.9
T. Bridgewater	DEN	12	9.4
J. Garoppolo	SF	13	8.1
T. Heinicke	WAS	14	6.3
B. Mayfield	CLE	15	6.2
J. Winston	NO	16	5.9
J. Allen	BUF	17	4.8
D. Carr	LV	18	-1.0
J. Burrow	CIN	19	-5.1
J. Hurts	PHI	20	-5.5
M. Ryan	ATL	21	-5.6
B. Roethlisberger	PIT	22	-6.1
C. Wentz	IND	23	-9.7
J. Goff	DET	24	-12.5
M. Jones	NE	25	-13.1
S. Darnold	CAR	26	-17.5
R. Tannehill	TEN	27	-18.4
J. Brissett	MIA	28	-22.0
D. Mills	HOU	29	-26.9
T. Lawrence	JAX	30	-27.4
Z. Wilson	NYJ	31	-47.6
J. Fields	CHI	32	-69.3

[Matts4313]

21 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

yes.

I think Dak played out of his mind to start last season and has looked great coming back. But just don't agree that he's been elite most of his career as Matts stated.

Rookie year he was voted the ~10th best player in the entire NFL. 

2017 he was statistically the same as Casron "Almost MVP" Wentz until the Falcons game (week 9). That game started a disgusting trend for our team. From Week 9 2017 - Week 5ish 2018 Dak was horrific. During that time (less than 12 months) we went through 3 different OL coaches, 2 different WR coaches, fired every single WR on the team save 1 - Cole Beasely. Literally all of the coaches and WRs would never go on to another single rep in the NFL - aside from Beasely. 

From the second half of 2018 - Week 6 2021 (35ish game), Dak has been a top 3 to 5 QB statistically, depending on which stat you prefer. Top 10 at worst.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Matts4313

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

yes.

I think Dak played out of his mind to start last season and has looked great coming back. But just don't agree that he's been elite most of his career as Matts stated.

How? Herbert has literally only been in the league for 1 season. So even if you considered last year elite, that’s an elite season() as in not plural.

I love Herbert, but he’s not had a season better than Lamar’s best season. Then when you consider this year, it’s pretty neck and neck to this point. Yet Herbert is in the elite category, while Lamar is in the same category with… Baker Mayfield. Same with Kyler Murray and Dak?

Looks legit.

[BrownLeader]

2 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

How? Herbert has literally only been in the league for 1 season. So even if you considered last year elite, that’s an elite season() as in not plural.

I love Herbert, but he’s not had a season better than Lamar’s best season. Then when you consider this year, it’s pretty neck and neck to this point. Yet Herbert is in the elite category, while Lamar is in the same category with… Baker Mayfield. Same with Kyler Murray and Dak?

Looks legit.

Context was that Dak hasn't been elite for an entire season yet, strictly my take, it's been around 10gms at the level he's at now... Where I feel like he's not just driving the bus he's carrying it ...and, at least technically, imo Herbert's been elite for 15 and 5. 

On Lamar...all depends on how you determine how good a guy actually is...

Jackson is sometimes impossible to defend, but so far, in the one and dones, when a team has had an opportunity to really prep.. he's underwhelmed. 

So far he's having his best season and looks like he might be able to have that clutch performance when it really counts..but we'll see.

[Matts4313]

4 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

Context was that Dak hasn't been elite for an entire season yet, strictly my take, it's been around 10gms at the level he's at now... Where I feel like he's not just driving the bus he's carrying it ...and, at least technically, imo Herbert's been elite for 15 and 5. 

On Lamar...all depends on how you determine how good a guy actually is...

Jackson is sometimes impossible to defend, but so far, in the one and dones, when a team has had an opportunity to really prep.. he's underwhelmed. 

So far he's having his best season and looks like he might be able to have that clutch performance when it really counts..but we'll see.

Herberts career vs Daks last 26 games:

						Passing															Rushing					Receiving
Rk	Player	From	To	AV	G	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Rate	Lng	Int	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	NY/A	ANY/A	Att	Yds	TD	Y/A	Lng	Rec	Yds	TD	Y/R	Lng
1	Justin Herbert	2020	2021	13	20	10-10-0	535	802	66.7	5912	44	99.9	72	13	41	279	7.4	7.74	6.68	7.03	74	294	6	4.0	31	0	0	0		0
2	Dak Prescott	2019	2021	21	26	14-12-0	661	983	67.2	8126	52	102.6	62	18	41	267	8.3	8.50	7.67	7.90	89	430	6	4.8	42	1	11	1	11.0	11

 

 

Daks got better CMP%, YPG, RTG, ANY/A, same INT%, slightly worse TD% - though a lot of that can be contributed to our stupid over reliance on Zeke in the red zone. 

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

Context was that Dak hasn't been elite for an entire season yet, strictly my take, it's been around 10gms at the level he's at now... Where I feel like he's not just driving the bus he's carrying it ...and, at least technically, imo Herbert's been elite for 15 and 5. 

On Lamar...all depends on how you determine how good a guy actually is...

Jackson is sometimes impossible to defend, but so far, in the one and dones, when a team has had an opportunity to really prep.. he's underwhelmed. 

So far he's having his best season and looks like he might be able to have that clutch performance when it really counts..but we'll see.

You’re ridiculous if you think Lamar didn’t carry the Ravens since he took over. They were 5-6 when he took over with the 31st ranked rushing attack and a bottom 10ish OL.

He takes over and suddenly the OL numbers improve to top 10 by seasons end, the rushing attack averages close to 220 yds/game to finish the season in 2nd place, the TOP helps the defense to improve. Suddenly that below .500 team goes 6-1 to close the season, only losing to the elite KC Chiefs by 3 points.

If that wasn’t enough he then carried the Ravens in 2019 with his unanimous MVP performance that was EASILY superior to Justin Herbert’s 2020 season last year, that you considered elite.

What’s more Lamar had a down year in 2020, yet his numbers were still, nearly across the board, better than Justin Herbert’s rookie season:

Herbert (2020)-  98.3 PR, 69.5 QBR, 79.9 PFF,  6.84 ANY/A, 13 AV
Jackson (2020)- 99.3 PR, 73.7 QBR, 81.5 PFF, 6.70 ANY/A, 18 AV

So based on your own rubric, you’re talking 15 games in 2019 (unless you don’t consider his UMVP season elite- which would be downright trollish), 15 games in 2020 (I mean I wouldn’t call it elite, but if Herbert’s 2020 is considered elite, then so be it) and then another 5 games in 2021.

Yet Herbert is on the Tom Brady/Pat Mahomes tier and Lamar is on the same tier with Baker Mayfield/Matt Ryan. There’s clearly a team bias at play and considering which QBs are left out of your elite tier and which included and the absurd reasoning provided for such, I  definitely have to wonder if there’s the possibility of a “QB diversity” bias as well. (As otherwise I can’t see any logical reasoning for the double standard some of these QBs are forced to endure with regard to your rubric).

I’ll let Cardinals and Cowboys fans argue the ridiculousness of your perspective with regard to their QBs, but to have those QBs also on the Mayfield tier is absurd as well.

Edited October 15, 2021 by diamondbull424

[The BILLievers]

18 hours ago, RayLew52 said:

Has Herbert of Josh Allen been elite outside of one season?

This narrative is old. 

Josh Allen last 10 games of the 2019 season : 21 Touchdowns - 2 INTS : 6-4 record

Josh Allen 2020 : 46 Touchdowns - 10 INTs : 13-3 record

Josh Allen this season : 14 Touchdowns - 2 INTs : 4-1 record.

So in Josh Allen's last 31 games : 81 Touchdowns - 14 INTs : 23-8 record

Edited October 15, 2021 by The BILLievers

[BrownLeader]

10 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

You’re ridiculous if you think Lamar didn’t carry the Ravens since he took over. They were 5-6 when he took over with the 31st ranked rushing attack and a bottom 10ish OL.

He takes over and suddenly the OL numbers improve to top 10 by seasons end, the rushing attack averages close to 220 yds/game to finish the season in 2nd place, the TOP helps the defense to improve. Suddenly that below .500 team goes 6-1 to close the season, only losing to the elite KC Chiefs by 3 points.

If that wasn’t enough he then carried the Ravens in 2019 with his unanimous MVP performance that was EASILY superior to Justin Herbert’s 2020 season last year, that you considered elite.

What’s more Lamar had a down year in 2020, yet his numbers were still, nearly across the board, better than Justin Herbert’s rookie season:

Herbert (2020)-  98.3 PR, 69.5 QBR, 79.9 PFF,  6.84 ANY/A, 13 AV
Jackson (2020)- 99.3 PR, 73.7 QBR, 81.5 PFF, 6.70 ANY/A, 18 AV

So based on your own rubric, you’re talking 15 games in 2019 (unless you don’t consider his UMVP season elite- which would be downright trollish), 15 games in 2020 (I mean I wouldn’t call it elite, but if Herbert’s 2020 is considered elite, then so be it) and then another 5 games in 2021.

Yet Herbert is on the Tom Brady/Pat Mahomes tier and Lamar is on the same tier with Baker Mayfield/Matt Ryan. There’s clearly a team bias at play and considering which QBs are left out of your elite tier and which included and the absurd reasoning provided for such, I  definitely have to wonder if there’s the possibility of a “QB diversity” bias as well. (As otherwise I can’t see any logical reasoning for the double standard some of these QBs are forced to endure with regard to your rubric).

I’ll let Cardinals and Cowboys fans argue the ridiculousness of your perspective with regard to their QBs, but to have those QBs also on the Mayfield tier is absurd as well.

Not really any particular biases at play here. When Jackson was a soph at Louisville I had pages of debate in here that when he declares as a junior he ought to be the #1 overall pick. My reasoning was that he was improving rapidly and if he continues to do so, he'd earn it. I've been high on him for awhile.

Obviously he's an elite running QB and arguably the best the league has had. That Baltimore offense is automatous and he's the spearhead. But he's always been limited as a passer and often failed to step up when that part of his game was needed. I think he's been more clutch this year and well see if he keeps it up.

The Ravens competency on the coaching side has never really been in question and they've always cultivated talented OLineman. @Matts4313The Cowboys transitioned from a playoff Romo team to a playoff Dak team seamlessly. Herbert stepped into a ****show of a Charger team, ultimately had all his starting OL and coaches replaced at years end, and still put up that performance as a rookie. ..and so far improved.

You're vexed by the tiers but I've got Jackson top ten fairly close to elite and Mayfield fairly close to average. I don't think that's an outrageous take.

[Matts4313]

4 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

@Matts4313The Cowboys transitioned from a playoff Romo team to a playoff Dak team seamlessly. Herbert stepped into a ****show of a Charger team, ultimately had all his starting OL and coaches replaced at years end, and still put up that performance as a rookie. ..and so far improved.

This is completely revisionist history. 

Dak took over a 4-12 team that was 31st ranked offense and 16th ranked defense (points). By the end of his 2nd year, virtually all of his offensive coaches had been fired (except linehan, he made it 1 more year) and all of his WRs were replaced aside from Beasely. 

Herbert joined a team that had a better record, a better offensive ranking and a better defensive ranking. Additionally, all his main players from year 1 will still most likely be there going into year 3 as they are good players.

[BrownLeader]

5 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

This is completely revisionist history. 

Dak took over a 4-12 team that was 31st ranked offense and 16th ranked defense (points). By the end of his 2nd year, virtually all of his offensive coaches had been fired (except linehan, he made it 1 more year) and all of his WRs were replaced aside from Beasely. 

Herbert joined a team that had a better record, a better offensive ranking and a better defensive ranking. Additionally, all his main players from year 1 will still most likely be there going into year 3 as they are good players.

They weren't really as bad as those numbers though. If Romo doesn't get hurt, they're easily better than 4-12 and possibly don't pull the plug on everything.

[Matts4313]

4 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

They weren't really as bad as those numbers though. If Romo doesn't get hurt, they're easily better than 4-12 and possibly don't pull the plug on everything.

Right. With elite QB play (which is what Romo was as of 2014) the Cowboys were better than 4-12. That was shown when we got elite QB play in 2016, Daks rookie year. 

 

Dont forget, Daks 2016 is rated the best rookie season of any player in history according to ESPN. NFL/CBS/Bleacher/ETC all have it as a top 5 rookie season ever. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Matts4313

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, Matts4313 said:

Right. With elite QB play (which is what Romo was as of 2014) the Cowboys were better than 4-12. That was shown when we got elite QB play in 2016, Daks rookie year. 

 

Dont forget, Daks 2016 is rated the best rookie season of any player in history according to ESPN. NFL/CBS/Bleacher/ETC all have it as a top 5 rookie season ever. 

Yeah where do you see this?

[Matts4313]

2 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Yeah where do you see this?

Ill have to google it later, but they put out an article stating it. I am on my phone at a dr appointment so I cant find it right now. Googling "Dak prescott greatest rookie season ever" shows that literally all of them stated it. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Matts4313