Top 12 QBs in the league.

[Bearerofnews]

55 minutes ago, Kirill said:

1. Mahomes
2. Herbert
3. Rodgers
4. Russell Wilson
5. Josh Allen
6. Kyler Murray
7. Tom Brady
8. Lamar Jackson
9. Matthew Stafford 
10. Dak Prescott
11. Joe Burrow
12. Derek Carr

Swap 1 and 2 and this would be money.

[diamondbull424]

14 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

Just my reaction after Herbert decisively outplayed by Jackson. ;

Oh. Yeah. Sorry. Usually I’m not bad figuring out context. Just didn’t know.

Well to Herbert’s defense, it was a new game plan that he hadn’t seen before. It’s what Lamar faced all last season.

The Ravens defense made Josh Allen look pretty mediocre in the playoff game. They have the ability to step up.

Conversely Lamar has had more experience with what defenses are looking to do to stop him. Herbert will get more experience and come back stronger for it.

The thing that I noticed with Herbert however was that his athleticism/instincts as a runner (to make plays with his feat) just aren’t on the same level as Allen or Mahomes. Which I think somewhat caps his potential more than I thought. Not that it’s a huge deal, he’s still an athlete, it’s just with Mahomes and Allen’s leg combination with their arms talent make them truly unstoppable. Herbert for me is like (hopefully people don’t get upset at this) a rich man’s Joe Flacco. Like Flacco with the work ethic and brains to make full use of his talent, while Allen is sort of like Big Ben with more speed and a better canon... Though with less natural football instincts (maybe?)

But yeah, point is Herbert will bounce back and be a beast. Jackson and Herbert are definitely close IMO.

[DoleINGout]

After first six weeks of 2021 szn:

1. Brady 2. Prescott 3. Herbert 4. Rodgers 5. J. Allen 6. Murray 7. Mahomes 8. R. Wilson* 9. Stafford 10. Jackson 11. Ryan 12. Burrow

HM: 13. M. Jones 14. Wentz 15. Cousins 16. Carr

 

The top ten on my list to this point are all just playing in general at an elite level in 2021. I don't rank based solely on 2021 which is important for people to note, however I do weekly updates to my list.

Edited October 19, 2021 by DoleINGout

[Xenos]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Oh. Yeah. Sorry. Usually I’m not bad figuring out context. Just didn’t know.

Well to Herbert’s defense, it was a new game plan that he hadn’t seen before. It’s what Lamar faced all last season.

The Ravens defense made Josh Allen look pretty mediocre in the playoff game. They have the ability to step up.

Conversely Lamar has had more experience with what defenses are looking to do to stop him. Herbert will get more experience and come back stronger for it.

The thing that I noticed with Herbert however was that his athleticism/instincts as a runner (to make plays with his feat) just aren’t on the same level as Allen or Mahomes. Which I think somewhat caps his potential more than I thought. Not that it’s a huge deal, he’s still an athlete, it’s just with Mahomes and Allen’s leg combination with their arms talent make them truly unstoppable. Herbert for me is like (hopefully people don’t get upset at this) a rich man’s Joe Flacco. Like Flacco with the work ethic and brains to make full use of his talent, while Allen is sort of like Big Ben with more speed and a better canon... Though with less natural football instincts (maybe?)

But yeah, point is Herbert will bounce back and be a beast. Jackson and Herbert are definitely close IMO.

This wasn’t the best game to show off Herbert’s skill set. He did more of it last year. But everyone seemed to have come out flat yesterday. With that being said, I honestly don’t mind that Herbert doesn’t use his athleticism in the same way that Allen, Lamar, and Mahomes does. It’s probably better for his long term health if he primarily does things from the pocket with the occasional out of structure plays. As for the Joe Flacco comparisons, I prefer rich man Drew Brees more. But a ring is a ring.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Xenos

[Geezy]

12 hours ago, Xenos said:

This wasn’t the best game to show off Herbert’s skill set. He did more of it last year. But everyone seemed to have come out flat yesterday. With that being said, I honestly don’t mind that Herbert doesn’t use his athleticism in the same way that Allen, Lamar, and Mahomes does. It’s probably better for his long term health if he primarily does things from the pocket with the occasional out of structure plays. As for the Joe Flacco comparisons, I prefer rich man Drew Brees more. But a ring is a ring.

a rich mans Drew Brees? wow 

[Xenos]

14 minutes ago, Geezy said:

a rich mans Drew Brees? wow 

That’s what I prefer and would like to happen 😆

But seriously, I’m just throwing it out there because Herbert is in the Sean Payton offense. Plus you know this:

https://www.chargers.com/news/from-the-podium-drew-brees-justin-herbert-minicamp-2021

[SkippyX]

2021 Rodgers is

• 9th in rating,
• 14th in ANY/A
• 9th in TD%
• 9th in INT %
• 13th in yards per attempt
• 15th in completion %
• 18th in sack percentage
• The only thing I could find for him in the top 5 is he is 5th in Charlie Batch Stats (QBR)

 

He is dead last in deep ball conversions this year.

He was nothing special (when talking top 5-10) in 2018 or 2019

He will be 38 in December.

 

The only way he gets a top 3 ranking is based on pretending only 2020 matters.

In 2021 he's a top 10 guy in the 5-10 range with huge leadership red flags.

 

[NoFlyZone]

5 hours ago, SkippyX said:

2021 Rodgers is

• 9th in rating,
• 14th in ANY/A
• 9th in TD%
• 9th in INT %
• 13th in yards per attempt
• 15th in completion %
• 18th in sack percentage
• The only thing I could find for him in the top 5 is he is 5th in Charlie Batch Stats (QBR)

 

He is dead last in deep ball conversions this year.

He was nothing special (when talking top 5-10) in 2018 or 2019

He will be 38 in December.

 

The only way he gets a top 3 ranking is based on pretending only 2020 matters.

In 2021 he's a top 10 guy in the 5-10 range with huge leadership red flags.

 

Couldn’t agree more. This season is really not even anything out of the norm for Rodgers in consideration to the last several seasons. He gets rated based on name value alone and that’s it. 

[Bearerofnews]

20 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Oh. Yeah. Sorry. Usually I’m not bad figuring out context. Just didn’t know.

Well to Herbert’s defense, it was a new game plan that he hadn’t seen before. It’s what Lamar faced all last season.

The Ravens defense made Josh Allen look pretty mediocre in the playoff game. They have the ability to step up.

Conversely Lamar has had more experience with what defenses are looking to do to stop him. Herbert will get more experience and come back stronger for it.

The thing that I noticed with Herbert however was that his athleticism/instincts as a runner (to make plays with his feat) just aren’t on the same level as Allen or Mahomes. Which I think somewhat caps his potential more than I thought. Not that it’s a huge deal, he’s still an athlete, it’s just with Mahomes and Allen’s leg combination with their arms talent make them truly unstoppable. Herbert for me is like (hopefully people don’t get upset at this) a rich man’s Joe Flacco. Like Flacco with the work ethic and brains to make full use of his talent, while Allen is sort of like Big Ben with more speed and a better canon... Though with less natural football instincts (maybe?)

But yeah, point is Herbert will bounce back and be a beast. Jackson and Herbert are definitely close IMO.

Herbert has elite athleticism for a QB. My biggest knock on him is that he doesn't use it more. He is remaining consistent to remaining in the pocket and maybe that's better for the long run. But to your point, when he uses his athleticism, like he did last year or in some games this year, he like Mahomes and Allen is unstoppable. He is just less likely to use it for now. Not sure if it's by design and coaching, or he just is feeling more comfortable in the pocket.

 

Also hell no on the Flacco comparison. Said it before and i stick with it. He is a Peyton/Marino hybrid. 

[diamondbull424]

48 minutes ago, Bearerofnews said:

Herbert has elite athleticism for a QB. My biggest knock on him is that he doesn't use it more. He is remaining consistent to remaining in the pocket and maybe that's better for the long run. But to your point, when he uses his athleticism, like he did last year or in some games this year, he like Mahomes and Allen is unstoppable. He is just less likely to use it for now. Not sure if it's by design and coaching, or he just is feeling more comfortable in the pocket.

 

Also hell no on the Flacco comparison. Said it before and i stick with it. He is a Peyton/Marino hybrid. 

He has the same arm talent as Flacco and the same caliber of athleticism as young Joe Flacco as well. Rookie Flacco averaged 4.2 YPT on 53 touches VS Herbert’s  4.3 YPT on 55 touches last season. Then Flacco stopped using his athleticism in games in each passing season until he became the absolute statue that he is today.

Beyond that, you’re taking the Flacco comparison perhaps too literal because I mentioned Herbert clearly has the work ethic and processing power that Flacco never had. Herbert has elite levels in those areas while Flacco was average to below average and was carried by his physical tools. But from a pure physical tools perspective, they look very similar IMO.

Also Herbert absolutely does not have elite athleticism at the QB position. Just like Lamar doesn’t have elite arm talent. It’s just the reality. The only elite athletes at QB IMO are Lamar and Kyler; with Watson, Allen, and Hurts on the great level; then Mahomes, who is a good athlete. Herbert is IMO at best on Mahomes level, though I’m starting to wonder if perhaps he’s on a half level down.

Also I wouldn’t fight anyone that would have both Watson and Allen on the elite tier (mainly because of their strength, contact balance, and oily hips), but no way is Herbert on there.

Edited October 20, 2021 by diamondbull424

[Bearerofnews]

55 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

He has the same arm talent as Flacco and the same caliber of athleticism as young Joe Flacco as well. Rookie Flacco averaged 4.2 YPT on 53 touches VS Herbert’s  4.3 YPT on 55 touches last season. Then Flacco stopped using his athleticism in games in each passing season until he became the absolute statue that he is today.

Beyond that, you’re taking the Flacco comparison perhaps too literal because I mentioned Herbert clearly has the work ethic and processing power that Flacco never had. Herbert has elite levels in those areas while Flacco was average to below average and was carried by his physical tools. But from a pure physical tools perspective, they look very similar IMO.

Also Herbert absolutely does not have elite athleticism at the QB position. Just like Lamar doesn’t have elite arm talent. It’s just the reality. The only elite athletes at QB IMO are Lamar and Kyler; with Watson, Allen, and Hurts on the great level; then Mahomes, who is a good athlete. Herbert is IMO at best on Mahomes level, though I’m starting to wonder if perhaps he’s on a half level down.

Also I wouldn’t fight anyone that would have both Watson and Allen on the elite tier (mainly because of their strength, contact balance, and oily hips), but no way is Herbert on there.

How are you measuring athleticism?

 

 

 

 

Flacco had a RAS score of 7.79. I think any comparison with Flacco is an insult. Herbert is so far ahead of Flacco in every measurable, skill set, ability and talent standpoint that it feels like a underhand slight. I respect you, but it's a horrible comparison. Herbert has great athleticism for a QB, especially at 6'6 238-240.  Behind Lamar and Daniel Jones he had the 3rd fastest run recorded last year for any QB based on NGS.

 

https://ras.football/2017/01/17/qb-relative-athletic-scores-ras-table/

[diamondbull424]

3 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

How are you measuring athleticism?

 

 

 

 

Flacco had a RAS score of 7.79. I think any comparison with Flacco is an insult. Herbert is so far ahead of Flacco in every measurable, skill set, ability and talent standpoint that it feels like a underhand slight. I respect you, but it's a horrible comparison. Herbert has great athleticism for a QB, especially at 6'6 238-240.  Behind Lamar and Daniel Jones he had the 3rd fastest run recorded last year for any QB based on NGS.

 

https://ras.football/2017/01/17/qb-relative-athletic-scores-ras-table/

1. Daniel Jones is someone I forgot about. I’d have him in that good athleticism range with Mahomes. He’s got the speed, just not the kind of power and balance as Watson and Allen IMO.

2. I measure the athleticism based off of game impact provided. Allen from a combine perspective would likely be outpaced by a Justin Fields, yet his athletic impact on a game, even when he was also a raw rookie QB, was more pronounced. Deshaun Watson had a RAS well below that of Daunte Culpepper yet he has been quite easily the superior athlete when it came to his impact on the game. Both Watson and Allen have an ability to take over a game with their rushing ability if a pass defense is incredibly stingy.

3. So while Herbert has a 9.69 RAS and Joe Flacco has an 8.14 RAS
https://ras.football/2020/01/04/joe-flacco-ras/
I just see similar size and movement skills on the field. Both were/are difficult to bring down, but not a menace. No one would mistake Flacco for Big Ben just as Herbert isn’t Josh Allen (in that realm). Looking at the athletic numbers, it seems Flacco was quicker than Herbert, yet Herbert is faster and more explosive. Yet both are tall guys with nice movement skills. Flacco didn’t display the kind of ability to take over a game with his athleticism and what I saw from Herbert was someone that I don’t believe has the ability to take over a game with his athletic prowess.

For your hate of the Rich Man’s Flacco comparison because of Flacco’s RAS score, then you should hate the Drew Brees comparison even more since he was only a 7.74 in his RAS score.

4. I just don’t look at RAS score as if it’s the end all be all of athleticism. I think it’s more athletic potential whereas what shows up in the game is the athletic impact. Could I be underestimating Herbert’s athleticism? Probably. Yet is it to a degree that to say he’s a rich version, is somehow an insult? I absolutely don’t think so. If Herbert is being disrespected, then I expect his athleticism on the field to produce far superior results than what he’s shown to this point.

5. Lastly, I respect you as well. But again, I think you’re getting too defensive. Just like if someone had said Lamar was a rich man’s Tyrod Taylor, the comparison would’ve had some merit. Similar height, both use their athleticism to extend and/or make plays. Neither has an arm cannon, yet can make the necessary throws. Yet Lamar is far more special, just as Herbert is far more special than Flacco. Yet my point was simply that I just don’t see Herbert as the kind of QB to take over a game with his athleticism, as I’ve come to know can be done from Watson and Allen. Which is something that I think now gives Allen a bit of an edge in my comparison between the two... as I initially IIRC determined that I would take Herbert over Allen (in the comparisons thread). Whereas now I think I’d take Allen instead.

 

[Matts4313]

21 hours ago, Xenos said:

21 hours ago, Geezy said:

a rich mans Drew Brees? wow 

That’s what I prefer and would like to happen 😆

But seriously, I’m just throwing it out there because Herbert is in the Sean Payton offense. Plus you know this:

https://www.chargers.com/news/from-the-podium-drew-brees-justin-herbert-minicamp-2021

:looks at picture:

Maybe not a rich mans Brees, but certainly a talls mans brees. 

[Matts4313]

I gotta agree with @diamondbull424 that Flacco was sneaky athletic in his younger days. There used to be a youtube meme that was basically just showing Flacco awkwardly breaking ankles each week. He didnt look like it, but the guy was mobile. 

Another guy like that is Wentz. He's so dumb in the pocket that he never shows it, but that cat has a lot of athletic ability in him. 

I dont think comping Herbert to them is an insult, @Bearerofnews, because Herbert has more mental capacity than either of them. And if Peyton/Brady have shown us anything, the best attribute for a QB is in between his ears. 

[SBLIII]

19 hours ago, SkippyX said:

2021 Rodgers is

• 9th in rating,
• 14th in ANY/A
• 9th in TD%
• 9th in INT %
• 13th in yards per attempt
• 15th in completion %
• 18th in sack percentage
• The only thing I could find for him in the top 5 is he is 5th in Charlie Batch Stats (QBR)

 

He is dead last in deep ball conversions this year.

He was nothing special (when talking top 5-10) in 2018 or 2019

He will be 38 in December.

 

The only way he gets a top 3 ranking is based on pretending only 2020 matters.

In 2021 he's a top 10 guy in the 5-10 range with huge leadership red flags.

 

I mean he has been mostly in that range after his MVP year in 14. Last year was an outlier but LaFleur has him playing at a much higher level than McCarthy in his last couple of years. I think he improves into the 4-6 range as the season goes on and he gets his All-Pro tackle back but regression was always coming.