Top 12 QBs in the league.

[pwny]

1 hour ago, BrownLeader said:

They weren't really as bad as those numbers though. If Romo doesn't get hurt, they're easily better than 4-12 and possibly don't pull the plug on everything.

Not to mention that rookie Zeke completely transformed that offense to the point that it was virtually indistinguishable from the offense that was out there in 2015. That was easily one of the friendliest situations of the last decade that a rookie QB has landed in. I'm not sure that any rookie that started the majority of their rookie year has landed in a safer situation any time recently. That OL was art least borderline all time great, the defense allowed the 5th fewest points in the league in 2016, and Zeke was a complete game changing monster right away.

The weapons were subpar, but they kept him in safe situations where he dropped back less times than every team except the Dolphins, and had to throw 150 fewer times than the Cowboys opponents. 

[Matts4313]

2 hours ago, pwny said:

Zeke completely transformed that offense to the point that it was virtually indistinguishable from the offense that was out there in 2015

Another revision of history. The Cowboys went from Murray getting 100 yards a game, to McFadden getting 100 yards a game, to Zeke doing it. Very little changed from a run game standpoint. The stark contrast in offensive production was due to the QB having an all time rookie season. 

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

Not really any particular biases at play here. When Jackson was a soph at Louisville I had pages of debate in here that when he declares as a junior he ought to be the #1 overall pick. My reasoning was that he was improving rapidly and if he continues to do so, he'd earn it. I've been high on him for awhile.

Obviously he's an elite running QB and arguably the best the league has had. That Baltimore offense is automatous and he's the spearhead. But he's always been limited as a passer and often failed to step up when that part of his game was needed. I think he's been more clutch this year and well see if he keeps it up.

The Ravens competency on the coaching side has never really been in question and they've always cultivated talented OLineman. @Matts4313The Cowboys transitioned from a playoff Romo team to a playoff Dak team seamlessly. Herbert stepped into a ****show of a Charger team, ultimately had all his starting OL and coaches replaced at years end, and still put up that performance as a rookie. ..and so far improved.

You're vexed by the tiers but I've got Jackson top ten fairly close to elite and Mayfield fairly close to average. I don't think that's an outrageous take.

I’m assuming you’re not counting playoffs in this, considering Justin Herbert has never made a playoffs to prove himself as clutch or developed in that aspect.

So talking regular season Lamar strictly, there’s nothing to suggest that since 2019 he’s been unable to step up in games when his team needed it. Be it 2019 where he was blowing the doors off all teams not named KC and the first Browns meeting. Or 2020 where he had the huge moment against the Browns. Those are all scenarios where he proved his ilk in needed moments.

Whats more your goal posts keep changing. First it was elite season for multiple years, then it was 15 + 5 games, and now it’s “I don’t know if Lamar is clutch enough because until recently he’s never been down enough to have the opportunity to orchestrate pivotal comebacks.”

The fact of the matter is, while Herbert is a beast, no question. You’ve consistently changed your goal posts to fit your narrative. I’m not hung up on the tiers. I’m hung up on your reasoning. You decided to elevate Herbert for numbers that were objectively worse than Lamar’s in 2020 and then their 2021 season is neck and neck:

Herbert: 90.0 PFF, 104.7 PR, 66.1 QBR, 7.59 ANY/A, 3 fourth Qrt Cbks

Jackson: 87.1 PFF, 104.4 PR, 61.5 QBR, 8.24 ANY/A, 3 fourth Qrt Cbks

Not even half way through the season, the numbers are close enough that either could end up with superior numbers to the other by seasons end. Herbert currently has the advantage. But certainly not enough to say that he’s the far superior QB. You gave credit for Herbert having his success last season behind a depleted squad, well what about Lamar having success behind this depleted squad?

Again your logic is not consistent and your goal posts continue to move.

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I’m assuming you’re not counting playoffs in this, considering Justin Herbert has never made a playoffs to prove himself as clutch or developed in that aspect.

So talking regular season Lamar strictly, there’s nothing to suggest that since 2019 he’s been unable to step up in games when his team needed it. Be it 2019 where he was blowing the doors off all teams not named KC and the first Browns meeting. Or 2020 where he had the huge moment against the Browns. Those are all scenarios where he proved his ilk in needed moments.

Whats more your goal posts keep changing. First it was elite season for multiple years, then it was 15 + 5 games, and now it’s “I don’t know if Lamar is clutch enough because until recently he’s never been down enough to have the opportunity to orchestrate pivotal comebacks.”

The fact of the matter is, while Herbert is a beast, no question. You’ve consistently changed your goal posts to fit your narrative. I’m not hung up on the tiers. I’m hung up on your reasoning. You decided to elevate Herbert for numbers that were objectively worse than Lamar’s in 2020 and then their 2021 season is neck and neck:

Herbert: 90.0 PFF, 104.7 PR, 66.1 QBR, 7.59 ANY/A, 3 fourth Qrt Cbks

Jackson: 87.1 PFF, 104.4 PR, 61.5 QBR, 8.24 ANY/A, 3 fourth Qrt Cbks

Not even half way through the season, the numbers are close enough that either could end up with superior numbers to the other by seasons end. Herbert currently has the advantage. But certainly not enough to say that he’s the far superior QB. You gave credit for Herbert having his success last season behind a depleted squad, well what about Lamar having success behind this depleted squad?

Again your logic is not consistent and your goal posts continue to move.

If someone still thinks Lamar fails to throw in the clutch after how things have gone this season they’re never going to come around. 

[BrownLeader]

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I’m assuming you’re not counting playoffs in this, considering Justin Herbert has never made a playoffs to prove himself as clutch or developed in that aspect.

So talking regular season Lamar strictly, there’s nothing to suggest that since 2019 he’s been unable to step up in games when his team needed it. Be it 2019 where he was blowing the doors off all teams not named KC and the first Browns meeting. Or 2020 where he had the huge moment against the Browns. Those are all scenarios where he proved his ilk in needed moments.

Whats more your goal posts keep changing. First it was elite season for multiple years, then it was 15 + 5 games, and now it’s “I don’t know if Lamar is clutch enough because until recently he’s never been down enough to have the opportunity to orchestrate pivotal comebacks.”

The fact of the matter is, while Herbert is a beast, no question. You’ve consistently changed your goal posts to fit your narrative. I’m not hung up on the tiers. I’m hung up on your reasoning. You decided to elevate Herbert for numbers that were objectively worse than Lamar’s in 2020 and then their 2021 season is neck and neck:

Herbert: 90.0 PFF, 104.7 PR, 66.1 QBR, 7.59 ANY/A, 3 fourth Qrt Cbks

Jackson: 87.1 PFF, 104.4 PR, 61.5 QBR, 8.24 ANY/A, 3 fourth Qrt Cbks

Not even half way through the season, the numbers are close enough that either could end up with superior numbers to the other by seasons end. Herbert currently has the advantage. But certainly not enough to say that he’s the far superior QB. You gave credit for Herbert having his success last season behind a depleted squad, well what about Lamar having success behind this depleted squad?

Again your logic is not consistent and your goal posts continue to move.

The posts haven't moved. The original question was has Herbert been elite outside of 1 season. Not, has he been elite for multiple seasons. Petty, yes, but it's been 5 strong games. I've never mentioned or posted any stats and I'm not sure that putting a guy at 3 and another at 10, out of 32, in week 5, confers he's "far superior".  A 4 yr vet with a great coaching staff playing with **** is significantly different than a rookie with a lame duck staff, playing with ****...but I'm sure you know that.

All the same.. good convo heading into their head to head this week.

[diamondbull424]

19 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

A 4 yr vet with a great coaching staff playing with **** is significantly different than a rookie with a lame duck staff, playing with ****

I also know that a 22 year old Lamar had won a unanimous MVP with a hobbled Hollywood Brown (coming off Lisfranc), Mark Andrews (who was a stud), and a 30 y/o Mark Ingram as his most notable weapons.

Regardless of the curve in grading, I’m sure Lamar’s age 22 y/o season was still more elite than Herbert’s.

So if it’s “more than one season of elite play” as you claim, please explain Lamar’s placement. You also have him behind Kyler Murray, who is absolutely balling out this year, yet again based on your grading rubric, Murray has never had an elite season, just a string of elite games.

Honestly I would’ve respect the list far more had you simply said, “meh, I didn’t put much thought into it, but this is what I feel from looking each of these players in the eyes and staring into their soul.”

[diamondbull424]

37 minutes ago, BrownLeader said:

All the same.. good convo heading into their head to head this week.

Absolutely. I do agree with this. One of the more intriguing matchups heading into this week. Either QB outplaying the other, certainly wouldn’t surprise me. Honestly not sure how the game will go at all.

[Blackstar12]

Wentz is rising so many people thought he was left for dead.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Blackstar12

[BrownLeader]

@diamondbull424

[Mox]

21 hours ago, Blackstar12 said:

Wentz is rising so many people thought he was left for dead.

 

 

I mean, it's not like he's set the world and fire, and he's 2-4 with a really talented team.

[Blackstar12]

8 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I mean, it's not like he's set the world and fire, and he's 2-4 with a really talented team.

Meh the Colts aren’t as talented as you think. They still barely have any pass rush, secondary problems. On offense the OL has been beat up with Nelson missing 3 games and RT Smith missing 4. Despite all this he’s playing like a top 15 QB which is much higher than many people’s ranking which was near dead last. He’s the least of the Colts problems and has done what they asked of him.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Blackstar12

[diamondbull424]

7 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

@diamondbull424

Confused as to what this means if I’m being honest.

[Geezy]

Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Russell Wilson, Lamar Jackson, Dak Prescott, Kyler Murray, Justin Herbert, Matt Stafford, Derek Carr, Joe Burrow

Not particularly in order, but just the first guys that came up off the top of my head

[Kirill]

1. Mahomes
2. Herbert
3. Rodgers
4. Russell Wilson
5. Josh Allen
6. Kyler Murray
7. Tom Brady
8. Lamar Jackson
9. Matthew Stafford 
10. Dak Prescott
11. Joe Burrow
12. Derek Carr

[BrownLeader]

4 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Confused as to what this means if I’m being honest.

Just my reaction after Herbert decisively outplayed by Jackson. ;