2021 Around the League Thread

[Sugashane]

3 hours ago, soulman said:

Well for one thing McDaniels has never worked with a QB like Fields before.  He's also the guy who traded back into round one in order to draft Tim Tebow.  Need I go on?

Go ahead.  Hire him.  In less than four years you'll know why it was another bad idea.  I'll still be here waiting to remind you all of it too.

Wish you would have had the foresight to know how horrendous Nagy was. lol

I'll play devil's advocate, because I've been adamant on hiring Daboll for a while and would have been happy backing up the Brink's truck for him (or Moore at this point). How many QBs are like Fields? He hasn't worked with a QB that mixes that arm talent, athleticism and proven big game experience... and that's a BAD thing?  He has worked wonders with WAY less, and THAT is the point I'm trying to make. But who has worked with a QB like Fields? Allen has unprecedented arm talent that Fields will never have so Daboll is out (plus Fields isn't as raw as Allen was as a rookie IMO). Moore took over with Dak after he already had 3 years under his belt so they aren't alike. I highly doubt AZ fires Kingsbury so the Fields/Murray comparison is moot. At this point the only person remotely qualified by that metric is Greg Roman, but while Fields is athletic as hell he isn't on Jackson's level (plus he has a lot more development than Jackson did his rookie year as a passer). Fields isn't "like" anyone really, his closest comparison is Murray IMO so we need to look at track record of QBs they have worked with. Josh has a damn good case here.

He's elevated Brady, Cassell, Brissett, Orton, Jimmy G, and now Mac Jones. Take Brady out (Mahomes has a small chance to match his raw stats but that's it, no one is getting the rings, stats, etc like Brady IMO) and how many of those QBs are more talented than Fields? None. Newton wasn't intelligent enough to handle the playbook and they still put up more PPG than we are. Fields IMO is absolutely intelligent enough. As great a coach as Bill is, there is a reason he made McDaniels the highest paid OC by a large margin and Bill kinda sucks at drafting. Who do you think pushed for Jones to get drafted - Bill or McDaniels? I'm betting McDaniels was saying that Jones was the last high potential QB standing, and Bill made the pick happen because he agreed and has a ton of trust in McDaniels. When Bill says "Every player has a trade price" then he gives HC money to his OC that speaks volumes.

The Tebow thing means nothing honestly. Even after losing Cutler/Marshall and taking on the generational talent that is  Kyle Orton their offense outperformed us and only dropped by like 3 PPG, they lost more because their defense was atrocious his last year.  I don't want him having full personnel control, and stated that a long time ago. His work with QBs since 2009 speaks WAY more about his ability than a pick he literally could not make happen. Fun comparison, Tebow was a bad QB, right? Well, under John Fox, Tebow started 16 games over the 2010 and 2011 seasons. He threw for 17 TDs, 9 INTs, and ran for 9 TDs too. He also averaged 20.5 ppg in those starts, which includes being 1-1 in the postseason.

Meanwhile over 7 starts Fields has put up 4 passing TDs, 7 INTs, and ran for 1 rushing TD too, while putting up 16.6 ppg. This gets extrapolated to 16 games and you can see how these favor Tebow, who was as raw a passer as you could find. That lesser QB - and Tebow absolutely was a lesser QB in every way other than short yard run ability - has outperformed Fields so far. Neither had stellar talent at those points, Thomas and Decker didn't get starts until 2011 and even then Thomas only got 5.

Nagy has Fields being outdone by Tebow under Fox and McCoy, with better skill position players at theses points.

Right now with a rookie QB, Harris at RB who isn't as good as Monty (and some may even say Herbert either but I'm not that bold yet), and their top 3 receivers being Jakobi Meyers, Nelson Agholor, and Kendrick Bourne are putting up the 6th most points in the NFL at 27.3. While he has a lesser group of WRs and a QB I believe to be inferior to Fields in talent they still are outpassing the Bears by almost 100 ypg (we're 32nd in the league) and only rushing for 20 less yards per game (which over 30 of comes from Fields anyway). We are tied for 3rd least PPG at 16.7 (2nd worst is 16.6).

 

So I'm not saying McDaniels is the next Belichick, Lombari, Shula, or Walsh, but hiring him with his record would have been 1000 times better than hiring Nagy. Nagy was less proven than Tru was while he was coming out of college. McDaniels has owned one side of the ball and potentially the greatest HC of all time values him enough that he pays him like a HC at like $4 mil per year to run one side of the ball for him. With our OL and defense I don't think he could replicate being the 6th highest scoring offense here but I sure as hell believe he has us closer to the top 10 and we see ARob, Mooney, Kmet, and Goodwin or Byrd all playing significantly better than we have seen any play this year. The OL wouldn't be flipped around like musical chairs, and Fields wouldn't have a damn near totally wasted rookie season.

 

I hope they don't botch the HC decision and ruin Fields like they did Tru. McDaniels may suck as a HC but at least with him we will see if Fields is the guy or not. Tru never had a chance.

[soulman]

Wow, liked the novel.  Will there be a Reader Digest condensed version out soon?  LOL

My take on McDaniels is his work has been mostly with pocket passers who can run a very disciplined offense just as he has it laid out.  In that regard McDaniels and Nagy are somewhat the same.  But he and Belicheat knew far more about how to scheme to their players strengths than Nagy does or ever will.

I could write a counter narrative telling you all about what Bronco fans experienced with McDaniels but that would only end up as it usually does with the excuse that it was long ago and maybe he's different.  No he's not.  Leopards don't change their spots.  He's still just as arrogant as he ever was and in my mind a poor fit in Chicago.

2 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Wish you would have had the foresight to know how horrendous Nagy was. lol

With Nagy no one knew what to expect so we all bought into the sales pitch Pace, GMcC and Teddy Bears had packaged for us.  And for starters he looked like he might be the right guy too.  Then they wheels began to fall off because his QB and his offensive unit could not play his schemes and they still can't four years later.

With McDaniels I have no doubt about who and what we'd be getting and it doesn't excite me at all.  Why?  Because the Bears front office is not the NE front office and the McCaskeys aren't Robert Kraft.  He failed to achieve even mediocrity once while stepping away from all that and IMHO he will fail at it again if he steps away.

Leave him in NE where he belongs and even more obviously prefers to be serving his time as the heir apparent to Belicheats job as HC.  He got too anxious waiting for that day once already but Kraft reeled him right back in while he left Indy waiting at the alter like a bride on her wedding day and you tell me he's who you want?

No problem  This would be one time when I'd be very please to say "I told you so".

[dll2000]

8 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Wish you would have had the foresight to know how horrendous Nagy was. lol

I'll play devil's advocate, because I've been adamant on hiring Daboll for a while and would have been happy backing up the Brink's truck for him (or Moore at this point). How many QBs are like Fields? He hasn't worked with a QB that mixes that arm talent, athleticism and proven big game experience... and that's a BAD thing?  He has worked wonders with WAY less, and THAT is the point I'm trying to make. But who has worked with a QB like Fields? Allen has unprecedented arm talent that Fields will never have so Daboll is out (plus Fields isn't as raw as Allen was as a rookie IMO). Moore took over with Dak after he already had 3 years under his belt so they aren't alike. I highly doubt AZ fires Kingsbury so the Fields/Murray comparison is moot. At this point the only person remotely qualified by that metric is Greg Roman, but while Fields is athletic as hell he isn't on Jackson's level (plus he has a lot more development than Jackson did his rookie year as a passer). Fields isn't "like" anyone really, his closest comparison is Murray IMO so we need to look at track record of QBs they have worked with. Josh has a damn good case here.

He's elevated Brady, Cassell, Brissett, Orton, Jimmy G, and now Mac Jones. Take Brady out (Mahomes has a small chance to match his raw stats but that's it, no one is getting the rings, stats, etc like Brady IMO) and how many of those QBs are more talented than Fields? None. Newton wasn't intelligent enough to handle the playbook and they still put up more PPG than we are. Fields IMO is absolutely intelligent enough. As great a coach as Bill is, there is a reason he made McDaniels the highest paid OC by a large margin and Bill kinda sucks at drafting. Who do you think pushed for Jones to get drafted - Bill or McDaniels? I'm betting McDaniels was saying that Jones was the last high potential QB standing, and Bill made the pick happen because he agreed and has a ton of trust in McDaniels. When Bill says "Every player has a trade price" then he gives HC money to his OC that speaks volumes.

The Tebow thing means nothing honestly. Even after losing Cutler/Marshall and taking on the generational talent that is  Kyle Orton their offense outperformed us and only dropped by like 3 PPG, they lost more because their defense was atrocious his last year.  I don't want him having full personnel control, and stated that a long time ago. His work with QBs since 2009 speaks WAY more about his ability than a pick he literally could not make happen. Fun comparison, Tebow was a bad QB, right? Well, under John Fox, Tebow started 16 games over the 2010 and 2011 seasons. He threw for 17 TDs, 9 INTs, and ran for 9 TDs too. He also averaged 20.5 ppg in those starts, which includes being 1-1 in the postseason.

Meanwhile over 7 starts Fields has put up 4 passing TDs, 7 INTs, and ran for 1 rushing TD too, while putting up 16.6 ppg. This gets extrapolated to 16 games and you can see how these favor Tebow, who was as raw a passer as you could find. That lesser QB - and Tebow absolutely was a lesser QB in every way other than short yard run ability - has outperformed Fields so far. Neither had stellar talent at those points, Thomas and Decker didn't get starts until 2011 and even then Thomas only got 5.

Nagy has Fields being outdone by Tebow under Fox and McCoy, with better skill position players at theses points.

Right now with a rookie QB, Harris at RB who isn't as good as Monty (and some may even say Herbert either but I'm not that bold yet), and their top 3 receivers being Jakobi Meyers, Nelson Agholor, and Kendrick Bourne are putting up the 6th most points in the NFL at 27.3. While he has a lesser group of WRs and a QB I believe to be inferior to Fields in talent they still are outpassing the Bears by almost 100 ypg (we're 32nd in the league) and only rushing for 20 less yards per game (which over 30 of comes from Fields anyway). We are tied for 3rd least PPG at 16.7 (2nd worst is 16.6).

 

So I'm not saying McDaniels is the next Belichick, Lombari, Shula, or Walsh, but hiring him with his record would have been 1000 times better than hiring Nagy. Nagy was less proven than Tru was while he was coming out of college. McDaniels has owned one side of the ball and potentially the greatest HC of all time values him enough that he pays him like a HC at like $4 mil per year to run one side of the ball for him. With our OL and defense I don't think he could replicate being the 6th highest scoring offense here but I sure as hell believe he has us closer to the top 10 and we see ARob, Mooney, Kmet, and Goodwin or Byrd all playing significantly better than we have seen any play this year. The OL wouldn't be flipped around like musical chairs, and Fields wouldn't have a damn near totally wasted rookie season.

 

I hope they don't botch the HC decision and ruin Fields like they did Tru. McDaniels may suck as a HC but at least with him we will see if Fields is the guy or not. Tru never had a chance.

McDaniels was ahead of curve on Tebow.   At that time no one ran the QB, it was only scrambles.   This was pre Chip Kelly coming into league and Andy Reid stealing his run game (or college run game) and spreading it around NFL. 
 
Tebow was crappier at throwing than anticipated, but we will never know if he could have made it work without all the internal resistance.

This what I am talking about with Belichick ACs failing a lot.  A factor is they don’t have cache to radicalize a new program.  You get rebellions.  

Football success requires everyone pulling on rope in same direction.  

[JAF-N72EX]

20 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

McDaniels was ahead of curve on Tebow.   At that time no one ran the QB, it was only scrambles.   This was pre Chip Kelly coming into league and Andy Reid stealing his run game (or college run game) and spreading it around NFL. 

So now we're somehow crediting McDaniels for utilizing mobile QBs and being the Buddy Ryan of designed runs and acting like QBs such as Cunningham, Flutie, Kordell, McNair, Vick, McNabb, etc never existed lol? Jesus.

 

32 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Tebow was crappier at throwing than anticipated, but we will never know if he could have made it work without all the internal resistance.

We do know. He had bad mechanics with the longest release in history. If it was just a matter of poor timing on the wrong team then he would've worked out elsewhere but he never did.

[Madmike90]

8 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Allen has unprecedented arm talent that Fields will never have so Daboll is out (plus Fields isn't as raw as Allen was as a rookie IMO).

Bold statement time...as someone who has watched every snap of both Allen & Fields this season the difference in arm talent isn't as big as you might think IMO...off base Allen can throw the ball harder & further no doubt...feet set & a clean pocket? Fields throws a more catchable ball deep IMO.

[soulman]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

McDaniels was ahead of curve on Tebow.   At that time no one ran the QB, it was only scrambles.   This was pre Chip Kelly coming into league and Andy Reid stealing his run game (or college run game) and spreading it around NFL. 
 
Tebow was crappier at throwing than anticipated, but we will never know if he could have made it work without all the internal resistance.

This what I am talking about with Belichick ACs failing a lot.  A factor is they don’t have cache to radicalize a new program.  You get rebellions.  

Football success requires everyone pulling on rope in same direction.  

I wouldn't say McDaniels was ahead of the curve at all.   It was more about looking like he was trying to outsmart the rest of the NFL with a guy who was essentially a one dimensional college hero and it backfired on him big time.

Tebow was a much worse passer then McDaniel thought he was and even under Fox with Mike McCoy as OC the best they could do was come up with enough gimmick plays to pull off a few wins, one of them against the Bears.

Trading back into round one to draft Tebow was just a small sample of the kind of "I'm smarter than anyone else" arrogance that surrounded the Broncos while he was here.  There was also telling Cutler he was his guy while trying to trade with NE for Matt Cassel.

So take that incident and combine it with what he did to Indy and bald faced lies are part of his basic make up too.  I can't imagine any peace and harmony between McDaniels and the Chicago media either.  It would be an all out war.

[abstract_thought]

39 minutes ago, soulman said:

There was also telling Cutler he was his guy while trying to trade with NE for Matt Cassel.

Didn't he admit to Cutler that he wanted Cassel? I'm pretty sure that's what prompted Jay to ask for a trade.

Not that it makes McDaniels look much better, but he was pretty open about wanting Cassel. And Jay, of course, let his own ego get in the way too. The room wasn't big enough for both of those guys' heads.

[Sugashane]

8 hours ago, soulman said:

Wow, liked the novel.  Will there be a Reader Digest condensed version out soon?  LOL

My take on McDaniels is his work has been mostly with pocket passers who can run a very disciplined offense just as he has it laid out.  In that regard McDaniels and Nagy are somewhat the same.  But he and Belicheat knew far more about how to scheme to their players strengths than Nagy does or ever will.

I could write a counter narrative telling you all about what Bronco fans experienced with McDaniels but that would only end up as it usually does with the excuse that it was long ago and maybe he's different.  No he's not.  Leopards don't change their spots.  He's still just as arrogant as he ever was and in my mind a poor fit in Chicago.

With Nagy no one knew what to expect so we all bought into the sales pitch Pace, GMcC and Teddy Bears had packaged for us.  And for starters he looked like he might be the right guy too.  Then they wheels began to fall off because his QB and his offensive unit could not play his schemes and they still can't four years later.

With McDaniels I have no doubt about who and what we'd be getting and it doesn't excite me at all.  Why?  Because the Bears front office is not the NE front office and the McCaskeys aren't Robert Kraft.  He failed to achieve even mediocrity once while stepping away from all that and IMHO he will fail at it again if he steps away.

Leave him in NE where he belongs and even more obviously prefers to be serving his time as the heir apparent to Belicheats job as HC.  He got too anxious waiting for that day once already but Kraft reeled him right back in while he left Indy waiting at the alter like a bride on her wedding day and you tell me he's who you want?

No problem  This would be one time when I'd be very please to say "I told you so".

To be fair I do type quickly, and didn't realize it was so long. lol

Fair enough, I don't care if someone is arrogant. I'm not asking them to be friends, I want wins in the postseason.  He can be a total dbag as long as he isn't committing crimes. I'd prefer to be a hated winner than a lovable loser. While obviously a broad stroke that is the main narrative for me.

That is the issue, Nagy was an unknown and that is why O'Connell has fallen so much for me. Daboll, Moore, Leftwich, McDaniels, and even Roman are all as close to proven offensive minds as I can find that are available. That makes them a priority IMO.

Kraft is basically Teddy, but he lets football guys make the football decisions. And Bill hasn't really been stellar in the draft. One could argue Pace has outdrafted him overall during Pace's tenure.

From what I read the whole situation in Indy was a joke. This is a multi-million dollar position and they were essentially doing a "hash it out later" kind of thing? That's ridiculous on both sides. If I can take a bottom-end six figure spot and I can spend 2-3 hours negotiating the terms and expectations for what I want why would things like strength and conditioning, structure, etc not get worked out? That being said while I think IND was unprofessional in this regard (if true) it is also McDaniels' fault for not digging in his heels and making it a priority before agreeing to terms.

 

2 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

Bold statement time...as someone who has watched every snap of both Allen & Fields this season the difference in arm talent isn't as big as you might think IMO...off base Allen can throw the ball harder & further no doubt...feet set & a clean pocket? Fields throws a more catchable ball deep IMO.

I'm not bashing Fields, he has a serious plus arm. But to me Allen and Mahomes are at the top of the list and it isn't that close. I haven't watched a ton of Allen this year but over the last few years his deep ball has been one of the best in the game. I hope Fields does end up being the better passer.

[soulman]

1 hour ago, abstract_thought said:

Didn't he admit to Cutler that he wanted Cassel? I'm pretty sure that's what prompted Jay to ask for a trade.

Not that it makes McDaniels look much better, but he was pretty open about wanting Cassel. And Jay, of course, let his own ego get in the way too. The room wasn't big enough for both of those guys' heads.

Nope.  Cutler learned about it after the fact and said I want out.  McDaniels was happy to oblige.

Cutler never displayed a whole lot of ego when he played in Denver.  He mostly dislike being compared to Elway or being thought of as the new John Elway.  Those were always gonna be hard shoes to fill based on how emotionally attached Bronco fans were to Elway after he'd gone out winning back to back Super Bowls.

I believe that had Shanahan not been fired and Cutler remained in Denver he may well have become a second John Elway.  There were a whole lot of similarities in their skill set.  The Bears never gave Cutler the kind of support he would have gotten in Denver under Shanahan.

[Sugashane]

CLE has Beckham with a rushing TD and Chubb with a receiving TD. Weird. lol

[Madmike90]

Just now, Sugashane said:

CLE has Beckham with a rushing TD and Chubb with a receiving TD. Weird. lol

Super weird considering one of them doesn't play for Cleveland anymore 😉😂

[Sugashane]

2 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

Super weird considering one of them doesn't play for Cleveland anymore 😉😂

Holy crap, brother texted that to me and I completely fell for it. LMAO. 😂

Saw Chubb did have a receiving TD and trusted the jack***.

[Madmike90]

Just now, Sugashane said:

Holy crap, brother texted that to me and I completely fell for it. LMAO. 😂

Saw Chubb did have a receiving TD and trusted the jack***.

I am guessing he meant Landry who ran for one hahahaha

[Sugashane]

1 minute ago, Madmike90 said:

I am guessing he meant Landry who ran for one hahahaha

IDK. Either way I know we mess with each other for fun so I should have looked.

[CBears019]

Broncos have extended both Tim Patrick and Courtland Sutton.  Damn.