BayRaider Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Soggust said: Since Baker came into the league -> Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Rush Rush Rush Rush Rush Rk Player From To AV G QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Rate Lng Int Sk Yds Y/A AY/A NY/A ANY/A Att Yds TD Y/A Lng 1 Jared Goff 2018 2021 50 61 34-26-1 1460 2233 65.4 16523 93 92.1 70 49 113 834 7.4 7.24 6.69 6.54 144 334 8 2.3 26 2 Baker Mayfield 2018 2021 45 60 29-30-0 1185 1924 61.6 14125 92 87.8 89 56 134 889 7.3 6.99 6.43 6.10 158 571 5 3.6 35 Looks the same if you include entire careers, last 3 years, last 1 year, whatever timeframe you want. Goff has the best season overall and, sans his rookie year, Baker's 2019 is the worst season between the two. They both had good supporting casts at times and terrible at times. Goff had better coaching, Baker had a better line. Both had great run games at points. Both had WR cores that were a bit better on paper than in reality (at least with these QBs lol). I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how Baker is in the conversation much less "better by a great margin", lol. -------- With that being said I think he goes for a 3rd somewhere like Seattle or Indy, just due to lack of quality starters in the league. You realize one had McVay and one had Freddie Kitchens and Hue Jackson at one point right? To me Baker is average QB. Jared Goff is a below average QB. They are not very far apart at all... but I do think Baker is the better QB and in a different tier. Nothing about Goff is eye popping... his tools are meh, his football IQ is super meh, he's a beta, and had world class coaching on the Rams. With that said, Baker is nothing special what so ever. But I think he's at least average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, BayRaider said: You realize one had McVay and one had Freddie Kitchens and Hue Jackson at one point right? To me Baker is average QB. Jared Goff is a below average QB. They are not very far apart at all... but I do think Baker is the better QB and in a different tier. Nothing about Goff is eye popping... his tools are meh, his football IQ is super meh, he's a beta, and had world class coaching on the Rams. With that said, Baker is nothing special what so ever. But I think he's at least average. They are both below average starting QBs imo. I'm not likely picking either in the top 20. Where you at in the rankings in the comparison forum? 19 or 20? Both still on the board? They are probably like 21/22 for me and that's only if I'm removing rookies / second year guys with limited samples from the equation (those ranking polls really put things into perspective...a lot of times you just kind of say things off the cuff and it's not a big deal...those polls really bring it front and center to think about it lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Forge said: They are both below average starting QBs imo. I'm not likely picking either in the top 20. Where you at in the rankings in the comparison forum? 19 or 20? Both still on the board? They are probably like 21/22 for me and that's only if I'm removing rookies / second year guys with limited samples from the equation We are at 19. Both are on the board. I personally just picked Baker for the first time. I think the 17-19 tier is average (Jimmy, Mac, and Baker). After 19 you get the developmental tier (imo) (Lance, Lawrence, and Wilson), after that you get the below average tier (Wentz, Goff) and then after that you get the bad tier (Jones, Lock, Tua, Hurts) And yes I think second year developmental guys are better than below average guys basically by default. But that’s just my way of looking at things. Edited March 20, 2022 by BayRaider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, BayRaider said: You realize one had McVay and one had Freddie Kitchens and Hue Jackson at one point right? To me Baker is average QB. Jared Goff is a below average QB. They are not very far apart at all... but I do think Baker is the better QB and in a different tier. Nothing about Goff is eye popping... his tools are meh, his football IQ is super meh, he's a beta, and had world class coaching on the Rams. With that said, Baker is nothing special what so ever. But I think he's at least average. And Goff's stats include a season with Dan Campbell. Baker also had a huge running game advantage over the stretch we are discussing (2018-2021). We will never be able to make both situations identical, but to infer that Baker just didn't have enough help to put up Jared Goff level stats is like the most Baker-ish response imaginable. It's always an excuse for Baker. Literally nothing about him is eye popping. He can throw far but not accurately. His IQ is arguably worse than Goff's. Idk how you are determining beta here, but seems like another subjective i-just-kind-of-like-him-better take. I agree neither is special, but just because he can throw further in shorts, Baker's supposedly in a tier above? Nah. edit - Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Rush Rush Rush Rush Rush Rk Player From To AV G QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Rate Lng Int Sk Yds Y/A AY/A NY/A ANY/A Att Yds TD Y/A Lng 1 Jared Goff 2020 2021 20 29 12-16-1 702 1046 67.1 7197 39 90.7 63 21 58 441 6.9 6.72 6.12 5.97 68 186 4 2.7 26 2 Baker Mayfield 2020 2021 24 30 17-13-0 558 904 61.7 6573 43 90.0 75 21 69 431 7.3 7.18 6.31 6.23 91 299 2 3.3 28 Even when we ignore the jackson+kitchens years, and only include the Campbell year and arguably the worst McVay year for Goff, he's still arguably better than Baker lolol. Edited March 20, 2022 by Soggust 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 I don't think its fair to count rookie years. If you insist then Goff was a bad rookie, Good for you. Goff was the 5th best QB in 2017 8th best QB in 2018 22nd best in 2019 23rd best in 2020 17th best in 2021 75 / 5 = 15 and there are 32 teams. Below average Goff is not a thing. 17 is average on the horrendous 2021 Lions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 8 minutes ago, Soggust said: And Goff's stats include a season with Dan Campbell. Baker also had a huge running game advantage over the stretch we are discussing (2018-2021). We will never be able to make both situations identical, but to infer that Baker just didn't have enough help to put up Jared Goff level stats is like the most Baker-ish response imaginable. It's always an excuse for Baker. Literally nothing about him is eye popping. He can throw far but not accurately. His IQ is arguably worse than Goff's. Idk how you are determining beta here, but seems like another subjective i-just-kind-of-like-him-better take. I agree neither is special, but just because he can throw further in shorts, Baker's supposedly in a tier above? Nah. edit - Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass Rush Rush Rush Rush Rush Rk Player From To AV G QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Rate Lng Int Sk Yds Y/A AY/A NY/A ANY/A Att Yds TD Y/A Lng 1 Jared Goff 2020 2021 20 29 12-16-1 702 1046 67.1 7197 39 90.7 63 21 58 441 6.9 6.72 6.12 5.97 68 186 4 2.7 26 2 Baker Mayfield 2020 2021 24 30 17-13-0 558 904 61.7 6573 43 90.0 75 21 69 431 7.3 7.18 6.31 6.23 91 299 2 3.3 28 Even when we ignore the jackson+kitchens years, and only include the Campbell year and arguably the worst McVay year for Goff, he's still arguably better than Baker lolol. You’re really obsessed with stats. So much that I can basically predict your voting patterns. There’s zero chance Goff outperforms Baker in the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 Rodgers was 15th, 4th, 8th, 13th, and 12th best from 2015-2019 (8th or 9th best on average) Its almost like playing QB in the NFL is hard and 20 guys don't get to all be top 10 every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 minute ago, BayRaider said: You’re really obsessed with stats. So much that I can basically predict your voting patterns. There’s zero chance Goff outperforms Baker in the same situation. Just seems like a less biased approach than projecting awesome seasons for my favorite players, so I go with it. Except here, its not even stats. If we were talking about wanting Trevor over Goff, I’d understand, but Baker has 4 years of experience as a starting QB. We know what he is at this point. He’s Carson Wentz but two years younger. That’s it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, BayRaider said: You’re really obsessed with stats. So much that I can basically predict your voting patterns. There’s zero chance Goff outperforms Baker in the same situation. Goff has 2 NFL seasons better than anything Baker has ever done. I'm not sure if you know what zero chance means in this context. Here is where you try to explain how Archie Manning is actually better than Jim Kelly but coaches and teammates held him back? Is that predictable? Edited March 20, 2022 by SkippyX 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 Baker's good seasons were 15th and 19th best in passer rating. 👀 Goff was 17th this year. With Those Lions 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 McVay did not get rid of Goff because he was trash. He wanted a top 5 guy and Goff was lookin more like a top 10-20 guy in 2019-2020 . He did not want to pay the 10th to 20th best guy top 5 money. He thought Stafford was a top 5 guy. That's it. There was no declaration of Goff being a terrible QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 I listened to 92.3 The Game in Cleveland for a bit after the trade and the thing one of them said about Baker as a QB is that he absolutely must improve as a 3rd down QB. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/baker-mayfield-3rd-down-stats https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/jared-goff-on-third-down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDez Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 Idk why Baker hasn’t been better. He’s smart/tough enough and I thought his arm talent was really impressive his rookie season. With that running game it just doesn’t make sense that he’s closer to mediocre than great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teen Girl Squad Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 51 minutes ago, SkippyX said: Baker's good seasons were 15th and 19th best in passer rating. 👀 Goff was 17th this year. With Those Lions Did Baker have a literal Deity at WR? I think not. Checkmate atheists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Teen Girl Squad said: Did Baker have a literal Deity at WR? I think not. Checkmate atheists. ARSB humor 🌞 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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