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Cavaliers Thread: Embrace The Tank

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I will always remember Kyrie for the shot he made versus Golden State to put us up for good and win a Championship for us.  

On the flip side, I will always be dissapointed with Kyrie for wanting off of a winning team who has been to the Finals the last 3 years and most likely the next 2 at least.  All because he wanted to be THE MAN.

Is the trade with Boston a great trade, perhaps not but I don't think we were getting anything better at this point.  In my opinion I don't think it's a bad trade.  We did way better then what the other teams that traded Chris Paul/Jimmy Butler/Paul George got in return.  WAY BETTER.

In the end, if the pick becomes #1 overall I'd be in favor of trading it for a super star if the opportunity arises.   If not, I'd be happy with Bagley or Porter Jr.

 

Peace!!!

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1 hour ago, Mind Character said:

The better option was to not lowball your championship coaches after they won a title to the point that the whole team questioned the owners committment...the coaches didn't sing their contracts until the day of the season. Kyrie's mentor coach Phil started to doubt Gilbert and so did the rest of the team...this was reported by many. Then you fire David Griffin...the option was not to make such terrible decisions so you don't get in a situation where Kyrie wants a trade. The whole "Kyrie doesn't want to play with lebron" is a Dan Gilbert media fabrication. Kyrie doesn't want to play for an organization led by dan gilbert who lowballed his mentor and friend, fired the person that was supposed to be the next pat riley figure head....there's no stability and no confidence that the execs could help kyrie win in a sustainable way in the future...

No...you're hilarious. And you willingly eat up whatever thoughts you're fed...if you think Dan Gilbert deserves praise you're not paying attention to what's relevant imo....What choice did Lebron give Gilbert when he returned...any NBA owner would've done the exact same thing if Lebron came back...the kevin love thing was done by griffin and bron..

It doesn't matter if some billionaire spent pennies out of his pocket versus another owner spending quarters...

Dan Gilbert is worth over $6 billion dollars running a business that mostly took advantage of everyday working people being pushed underwater with their mortgages during repeated economic recessions and took advantage of desperate families in detroit for years before he made his way to cleveland....

NBA arenas are subsidized by the taxpayers such that in the end these billionaires have a building that generates tons of revenue for sometimes literally nothing: http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/12/is_quicken_loans_arena_overhau_1.html

What they give back to the people is entertainment which is a nice opiate for which they have to pay money for...the people don't get back any money for what their taxpayers provide.

The informed call that welfare for billionaires where what they put in pales in comparison to what they get back...the opposite is true for the tax payer

1 billion dollars is 1,000 millions. So, dan gilbert has roughly 6,000 millions of dollars. We don't know how much is liquid or tied up assets, but we know that he owns outright over 7 houses, 2 of which are overseas, 2 private planes, more cars than the days of the week, and that's just public record.

Let's look at the luxury tax and roster payout for the cavs: The Cavaliers had a massive $121 million payroll in 2016-17 and face a $45 million luxury tax. That's 166 million dollars.

If we ask ourselves, what percentage of 6,000 million dollars or (6 billion dollars) is what he spent on the Cavs payroll. That's roughly 2.7 percent of his estimated net wealth.

That doesn't factor in off shore wealth, new unreported casino holdings, his power in economic decision making and/or influence over an entire city market.

If a person makes $30,000 a year 2.7% of that is $810

If a person makes $60,000 a year 2.7% of that is $1,620

 

So, we should commend Dan Gilbert for what? Would we be praising a person that has $30,000 but owns over 7 houses, 2 of which are overseas, 2 private planes, more cars than the days of the week, etc if that person gave up $810 dollars to keep one of the greatest players in nba history in cleveland and on a championship caliber team?

Dan Gilbert doesn't pay ish..he doesn't do ish but get in the way of trades and mess stuff up...in fact the revenues alone pay for whatever he would've paid in luxury tax or for David Griffin....it's literally quarters in his pocket...in fact his ownership affords him power and influence that cannot be quantified by dollars and cents...We haven't even factored in all his other yearly revenue...

He's the one that drove Lebron out in the first place...Lebron is the one along with David Griffin that put together the team that won the championship...

Just b/c Dan Gilbert signs his name on a check for what amounts to nothing to him...doesn't mean he did anything at all...in fact he was the reason Lebron left the first time and his incompetence at letting a true basketball exec run the team like all the great franchises is causing Lebron to leave again. Lebron wants sustainable winning...Kolby Altman is unproven; David Griffin could've have taken the helm at such a Pat Riley type position and worked with Lebron so he would basically retire herer...

 

What an incredible wall of text.  I disagree with most of what I read, particularly the "took advantage of working class people".  Just out of curiousity, when you got your mortgage was the rate explained to you or was their a way to figure out how it worked? I guess every business that turns a profit should be ashamed of themselves for duping all the mouth breathers, amiright?!?

Yes, Gilbert is worth billions, as are most of the other owners in sports.  How come they don't spend as much as Gilbert?  Surely Mickey Arison could have afforded the luxury tax, no?

Cool speculation in that first paragraph though, sounds like you must know Kyrie and the inner workings of the Cavs pretty well. I'm just glad your abilty to state opinion as fact isn't limited to football prospects lol.  I guess it's easier to form your own narrative and construct the answer to fit that than it is to simply answer the question "what was the better deal on the table", but I digress.

The best part though IMO was that last line.  Just out of curiosity, but what happened when LeBron played for the team with a guy with a "Pat Riley type position"?  Didn't he leave as a free agent lol? Why in the hell would that have been the deciding factor?

 

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1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

What an incredible wall of text.  I disagree with most of what I read, particularly the "took advantage of working class people".  Just out of curiousity, when you got your mortgage was the rate explained to you or was their a way to figure out how it worked? I guess every business that turns a profit should be ashamed of themselves for duping all the mouth breathers, amiright?!?

Yes, Gilbert is worth billions, as are most of the other owners in sports.  How come they don't spend as much as Gilbert?  Surely Mickey Arison could have afforded the luxury tax, no?

Cool speculation in that first paragraph though, sounds like you must know Kyrie and the inner workings of the Cavs pretty well. I'm just glad your abilty to state opinion as fact isn't limited to football prospects lol.  I guess it's easier to form your own narrative and construct the answer to fit that than it is to simply answer the question "what was the better deal on the table", but I digress.

The best part though IMO was that last line.  Just out of curiosity, but what happened when LeBron played for the team with a guy with a "Pat Riley type position"?  Didn't he leave as a free agent lol? Why in the hell would that have been the deciding factor?

 

Whether you read my wall of texts or not.....I have facts and reality on my side and I don't live in a nonreality, nonfact based la la land like you where NBA owners, oil tycoons and real estate loan hustlers are friends of the common man....that they are kind hearted men that deserve our adoration and praise for blessing us with sports entertainment...the la la land where journalism and sourced reporting doesn't matter because who has time to read anything when the gut tells me all I need to know about things...

You fail to grasp/process basic realities and facts that have nothing to do with my speculation or "my own constructing of a narrative" regarding the cavaliers as well as basic aspect of our world and economy.

You always like to accuse everyone else, but maybe it is you that has no idea what you're talking about. Just because you don't know what is going on doesn't mean others' narratives are constructed out of thin air. Some of us read and try to decide if a report is likely to be true (i.e., well sourced, detailed, etc) or trash. I guess it's easier for you to use your lack of knowledge to construct your gut based narratives.

These are the facts regarding the cavaliers:

It's facts not speculation. For the cavaliers, the assistant coaches contracts post championship not being re-uped until the first game of the following season thereby forcing them to work an entire summer without a contract (a rarity in the league) reached the point of "hostility"

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-cavs-coaching-staff-frustrated-by-their-own-contract-situations/

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/07/because_of_delay_in_tyronn_lue_extension.html

---This was reported by multiple reporters with different outlets and one specified that "Phil Handy considering leaving the cavaliers but was convinced otherwise by Tyrone Lue...." Tyrone Lue spoke about how crazy the situation was to have coaches working without contracts and how he hoped for the best during a radio interview.  David Griffin along with the co-owner partner appalled at how the process played out.

---The players and Ty Lue spoke about how it left a sour taste in their mouth with management after experiencing the high of the Championship including Kyrie and Richard Jefferson on a podcast before the podcast road trippin became official

---Kyrie credits phil handy for his development and it has been reported many times how close they are, kyrie referred to him as a "father-like figure" before. http://www.slamonline.com/nba/qa-cavaliers-assistant-coach-phil-handy/

--David Griffin was seeking presidential control of roster, salaries, and all basketball related hiring and firing decisions like "Pat Riley" " promotions to roles like “general manager” and “president of basketball operations” as reported by tons of outlets something that Dan Gilbert controlled and argued with his co-owners about in a dust up that led to him consolidating all power http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/shake_up_in_cavs_owner_dan_gil.html

--Widely reported how Dan Gilbert would meddle in trades and undue the good work of Griffin and staff

Kyrie lost faith in Dan Gilbert's ability to lead this team to winning after firing Griffin, creating discord with the coaches. and phasing out the influence of other owners that knowingly desired to turn the basketball operation over to a person with president role. That's why Kyrie desired to be traded to organizations with self-governing basketball operations outside of the meddling of ownership....Gilbert wouldn't let go of his power...these are what is called facts

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the facts on the mortgage shark and loan industry and aspects of our world you are obviously oblivious about:

To your first point about "I guess every business that turns a profit should be ashamed..." blah blah...I didn't say every business. However, it is common knowledge our current human experience that we pay for things and participate in things that are scams and/or profit schemes put in place often before we were born to capitalize on the masses of hard working people. Known industries that fall into that category are the for profit health insurance industry and mortage/loan industry. Beyond expert analysis of those industries, even those on the inside of these industries don't refute the hard realities and truths of exploitation of the masses of working people.

When you go to the hospital and get a bill in the mail that says the bandage they gave you costs $700 and the labor to apply it to your foot costs $300 dollars those costs are decided arbitrarily by private companies. They then based on the policy charge you some arbitrary percentage of the arbitrary cost. When a person signs up for insurance, we all know for the most part that there are inflated costs set by collusion of those trying to make profit; that there is massive waste, fraud and abuse; that insurers are turning a profit off of the misery of the ill; that our premium hikes are often cash grabs unrelated to the quality of care, that the insurers provide no health care but are an intermediary that promises to do the book keeping, paperwork, and bureacracy for actual health providers. However, we all still get health insurance and "know what we signed up for."

Such is the case in the mortgage/loan industry especially if one sought a mortgage or had to refinance post recession. That is, we "know we're signing up for insane rates"  at times or signing up for an exploitative thing. The industry in the 20s and 30s was called the "Robber Baron Loan & Prospector industry." The rates that we pay are arbitrary and often set by private interests looking to make money on the prediction of fluctuation in interest rates (See info on the Libor Scandal and housing crash; https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/understanding-libor-scandal)

---Some people like Dan Gilbert cash in on that misery with smiles on their faces and whose companies do all kinds of shady stuff to veterans and families or the elderly struggling to make ends meet and to maintain their one asset: their house.

---Some people like to live in la la land and get all defensive as soon as someone mentions that the mortgage industry or health insurance industry and those who profit for them are....WAIT FOR IT....GASP....shrewd business people looking to make a profit on the backs of hardworking people....Look up Rock Financial and what Dan Gilbert and his business dealings did to small business owners and community developers in Detroit...it wasn't noble...Now he owns taxpayer funded and subsidized casinos, has a taxpayer subsidized cash cow sports venue, owns a major portion of to be developed real estate in cleveland with mostly blood money....and you want to build a statue to the honor the guy because he signed his name to a check once....

 

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8 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Cleveland fans taking a dump on Gilbert crack me up.

He's literally the only owner since 1964 to bring a title to Cleveland and allows his GM to operate with a blank check. 

Griffin was cool, but the collective of the forum could have done about as well. Winning is easy when you inherit a number one overall pick, LBJ decides to sign as a free agent and your predecessor left you with a slew of assets.

I guess I think things could be worse than Gilbert.  Anyone remember Gordon Gund?

I love Gordon Gund...........

 


compared to the man that changed the rules in the NBA.

http://top10busts.com/2015/02/honorable-mention-ted-stepien-bustworthy-nba-owner/

 

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I'm just hopping in to add one more poster's thoughts on the trade:

I like it because I think it made the best out of a bad situation. I think too many fans are evaluating this from an unrealistic position and not by the context of the actual situation: despite Kyrie being a phenomenal player on the court, he absolutely devalued himself on the trade market by forcing a trade. So does it stink that the Cavs weren't able to get a player just as impactful as him in return? Yes - and by some peoples' measures that means we automatically lost the trade - but the haul that the Cavs were able to get is greater than what I thought they'd be able to get, and so now we march on past the Irving era wishing him well in his journey to be "the guy".

Second, the Cavs were not going to have a hope of beating Golden State by just adding D Rose and some other bench players to the James-Irving-Love trio; it simply wouldn't have been enough. Whether they're a better or worse team today than they were yesterday, one can only speculate to, but a wholesale change like this at least provides an entirely different look and things to play around with, while not completely undercutting the Cavs total amount of talent.

Lastly, I loathe the Warriors so much I'm all for trading that Nets pick along with anything else to make another move and upgrade. I don't know exactly what that looks like because I'm not very well versed in the NBA as a whole, but I do know that I'm willing to go all in on this year just to spite Golden State and prove that not only are they not the best team ever, they weren't even the best team this year. If Lebron decides after all that that he wants to leave, then I'm not sure he ever planned on staying and I'll ride out the next five years of darkness happily smiling at the two Larry Obriens he brought to Cleveland.

 

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4 hours ago, Mind Character said:

Whether you read my wall of texts or not.....I have facts and reality on my side and I don't live in a nonreality, nonfact based la la land like you where NBA owners, oil tycoons and real estate loan hustlers are friends of the common man....that they are kind hearted men that deserve our adoration and praise for blessing us with sports entertainment...the la la land where journalism and sourced reporting doesn't matter because who has time to read anything when the gut tells me all I need to know about things...

You fail to grasp/process basic realities and facts that have nothing to do with my speculation or "my own constructing of a narrative" regarding the cavaliers as well as basic aspect of our world and economy.

You always like to accuse everyone else, but maybe it is you that has no idea what you're talking about. Just because you don't know what is going on doesn't mean others' narratives are constructed out of thin air. Some of us read and try to decide if a report is likely to be true (i.e., well sourced, detailed, etc) or trash. I guess it's easier for you to use your lack of knowledge to construct your gut based narratives.

These are the facts regarding the cavaliers:

It's facts not speculation. For the cavaliers, the assistant coaches contracts post championship not being re-uped until the first game of the following season thereby forcing them to work an entire summer without a contract (a rarity in the league) reached the point of "hostility"

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-cavs-coaching-staff-frustrated-by-their-own-contract-situations/

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/07/because_of_delay_in_tyronn_lue_extension.html

---This was reported by multiple reporters with different outlets and one specified that "Phil Handy considering leaving the cavaliers but was convinced otherwise by Tyrone Lue...." Tyrone Lue spoke about how crazy the situation was to have coaches working without contracts and how he hoped for the best during a radio interview.  David Griffin along with the co-owner partner appalled at how the process played out.

---The players and Ty Lue spoke about how it left a sour taste in their mouth with management after experiencing the high of the Championship including Kyrie and Richard Jefferson on a podcast before the podcast road trippin became official

---Kyrie credits phil handy for his development and it has been reported many times how close they are, kyrie referred to him as a "father-like figure" before. http://www.slamonline.com/nba/qa-cavaliers-assistant-coach-phil-handy/

--David Griffin was seeking presidential control of roster, salaries, and all basketball related hiring and firing decisions like "Pat Riley" " promotions to roles like “general manager” and “president of basketball operations” as reported by tons of outlets something that Dan Gilbert controlled and argued with his co-owners about in a dust up that led to him consolidating all power http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/shake_up_in_cavs_owner_dan_gil.html

--Widely reported how Dan Gilbert would meddle in trades and undue the good work of Griffin and staff

Kyrie lost faith in Dan Gilbert's ability to lead this team to winning after firing Griffin, creating discord with the coaches. and phasing out the influence of other owners that knowingly desired to turn the basketball operation over to a person with president role. That's why Kyrie desired to be traded to organizations with self-governing basketball operations outside of the meddling of ownership....Gilbert wouldn't let go of his power...these are what is called facts

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the facts on the mortgage shark and loan industry and aspects of our world you are obviously oblivious about:

To your first point about "I guess every business that turns a profit should be ashamed..." blah blah...I didn't say every business. However, it is common knowledge our current human experience that we pay for things and participate in things that are scams and/or profit schemes put in place often before we were born to capitalize on the masses of hard working people. Known industries that fall into that category are the for profit health insurance industry and mortage/loan industry. Beyond expert analysis of those industries, even those on the inside of these industries don't refute the hard realities and truths of exploitation of the masses of working people.

When you go to the hospital and get a bill in the mail that says the bandage they gave you costs $700 and the labor to apply it to your foot costs $300 dollars those costs are decided arbitrarily by private companies. They then based on the policy charge you some arbitrary percentage of the arbitrary cost. When a person signs up for insurance, we all know for the most part that there are inflated costs set by collusion of those trying to make profit; that there is massive waste, fraud and abuse; that insurers are turning a profit off of the misery of the ill; that our premium hikes are often cash grabs unrelated to the quality of care, that the insurers provide no health care but are an intermediary that promises to do the book keeping, paperwork, and bureacracy for actual health providers. However, we all still get health insurance and "know what we signed up for."

Such is the case in the mortgage/loan industry especially if one sought a mortgage or had to refinance post recession. That is, we "know we're signing up for insane rates"  at times or signing up for an exploitative thing. The industry in the 20s and 30s was called the "Robber Baron Loan & Prospector industry." The rates that we pay are arbitrary and often set by private interests looking to make money on the prediction of fluctuation in interest rates (See info on the Libor Scandal and housing crash; https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/understanding-libor-scandal)

---Some people like Dan Gilbert cash in on that misery with smiles on their faces and whose companies do all kinds of shady stuff to veterans and families or the elderly struggling to make ends meet and to maintain their one asset: their house.

---Some people like to live in la la land and get all defensive as soon as someone mentions that the mortgage industry or health insurance industry and those who profit for them are....WAIT FOR IT....GASP....shrewd business people looking to make a profit on the backs of hardworking people....Look up Rock Financial and what Dan Gilbert and his business dealings did to small business owners and community developers in Detroit...it wasn't noble...Now he owns taxpayer funded and subsidized casinos, has a taxpayer subsidized cash cow sports venue, owns a major portion of to be developed real estate in cleveland with mostly blood money....and you want to build a statue to the honor the guy because he signed his name to a check once....

 

Thank you for explaining healthcare and health insurance to me.  As an RN who works for a large insurer it was enlightening lol. 

The rest (that I read) was cute too.

Agreed to disagree.

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22 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

There should be a 100 word maximum. 

FACTS.

Edited by LETSGOBROWNIES
To add smarmy comment

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16 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Cleveland fans taking a dump on Gilbert crack me up.

He's literally the only owner since 1964 to bring a title to Cleveland and allows his GM to operate with a blank check. 

Griffin was cool, but the collective of the forum could have done about as well. Winning is easy when you inherit a number one overall pick, LBJ decides to sign as a free agent and your predecessor left you with a slew of assets.

I guess I think things could be worse than Gilbert.  Anyone remember Gordon Gund?

I like Gilbert but there are times when he needs to keep his mouth shut. 

that is all

Mastercheddaar

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43 minutes ago, Mastercheddaar said:

I like Gilbert but there are times when he needs to keep his mouth shut. 

that is all

Mastercheddaar

No doubt, but from a fan's perspective the good outweighs the bad imo.

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I think that we have gotten better overall because of this trade,  and we created some much needed flexibility.  Although the Kyrie is younger, and more talented than IT, I don't believe the gap is huge.  Jae Crowder is a proven "dog" of a defender, that will fit in nicely in our rotation.  We needed another perimeter defender, and he can still provide some offense.  I can envision him guarding Draymond, or chasing around Durant.  The pick can either be used to get younger, or parlayed into getting another established piece.  We are much better off today than we were yesterday. 

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10 hours ago, BwickRedux said:

I'm just hopping in to add one more poster's thoughts on the trade:

I like it because I think it made the best out of a bad situation. I think too many fans are evaluating this from an unrealistic position and not by the context of the actual situation: despite Kyrie being a phenomenal player on the court, he absolutely devalued himself on the trade market by forcing a trade. So does it stink that the Cavs weren't able to get a player just as impactful as him in return? Yes - and by some peoples' measures that means we automatically lost the trade - but the haul that the Cavs were able to get is greater than what I thought they'd be able to get, and so now we march on past the Irving era wishing him well in his journey to be "the guy".

Second, the Cavs were not going to have a hope of beating Golden State by just adding D Rose and some other bench players to the James-Irving-Love trio; it simply wouldn't have been enough. Whether they're a better or worse team today than they were yesterday, one can only speculate to, but a wholesale change like this at least provides an entirely different look and things to play around with, while not completely undercutting the Cavs total amount of talent.

Lastly, I loathe the Warriors so much I'm all for trading that Nets pick along with anything else to make another move and upgrade. I don't know exactly what that looks like because I'm not very well versed in the NBA as a whole, but I do know that I'm willing to go all in on this year just to spite Golden State and prove that not only are they not the best team ever, they weren't even the best team this year. If Lebron decides after all that that he wants to leave, then I'm not sure he ever planned on staying and I'll ride out the next five years of darkness happily smiling at the two Larry Obriens he brought to Cleveland.

 

Agree with all except trading the Nets pick.

This was a hell of a trade in that it addressed the reality of the present with an eye to the future.

I cannot think of a player we could get for it/spend it on who would take us over the top (i.e., Give us a realistic chance of beating GS this year).

And I am tired of mortgaging the future to appease James.

That would simply continue the Griffin strategy that put us in a deep hole (i.e., No draft picks, no cap space).

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