Week 2 MNF GDT #2: Cleveland Browns at Pittsburgh Steelers

[sdrawkcab321]

3 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

It doesn't make sense for Watson, at 28 years old, to go from being what he was in Houston to becoming a crap starter.  And I'm not sure you can point fingers at rust.  He played 6 games to close out last year and had a full offseason this year.  He looked better returning from Torn ACLs in college and in the NFL.

Which makes me think that after being an adored athlete his entire life (Watson's character was considered one of his best traits coming out of Clemson and nobody ever had a bad thing to say about him), he is not handling the hate well (which he brought onto himself with his decisions) and it has wrecked his psyche.  

 

I don’t get it. Has to be on coaching. Stefanskis passing plays are garbage. Very little route development. He calls sideline fades for small WRs like Elijah Moore and marquise goodwin. He calls like 2 TE screens a game that go no where.  He didnt take advantage of having an elite rb behind him by running when Chubb was healthy when he should have been running heavy rpo and play action. Then he tries these stupid trick plays every game where it looks like the offense has barely even practice and they got no where. I really wish haslam would have forced hired bill Obrian as an OC and forced Stefanski to give up play calling to him. At least he knew how to play Watson. 

[tab]

35 minutes ago, ET80 said:

He plays well amongst chaos. He can’t play on script or on time - his game was (is?) predicated on doing the unexpected. This was the case in Houston, and Bill O’Brien had the sense (or, perhaps lack of knowledge) to create structure to begin with. His play call was basically “Deshaun, go do Deshaun things…” and “Deshaun things” usually meant throwing it in Deandre Hopkins’ direction, or as far as he could so Will Fuller could run under it.

i think that was what was really surprising to me about last night, was the missed throws? I'd expect heroball watson to make those deep shots. maybe its a confidence issue, or steelers d, or maybe he's just not that guy physically anymore. but i expected him to march the browns downfield and win the game, to the point i almost stopped watching (right before TJ pick six)

[Rod Johnson]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The hate for Watson and idolizing of Jim Brown by the same people is a wild thing to experience.

For the record, they’re both garbage humans.  Don’t wanna give the wrong impressions lol.

Jim Brown was an important civil rights leader, an other-worldly football talent, and terrible to people in his personal life. I will continue to celebrate him for the first 2, and criticize him the the latter. I hate Deshaun because he's a sex pest and he sucks right now, and I was highly skeptical when we traded for him and have been unfortunately proven right.

[ET80]

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

22 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Some of us don’t have rapists playing QB - or, our team found out about said transgressions and traded him as soon as the legal situation clarified itself. (That’s where I fall on the spectrum).

You mean after he requested a trade.

If he wanted to stay and play in Houston I feel fairly confident he’d still be there.

Given how the majority owner of the team is an active advocate against SA and even joined in the “my cleats/my cause” initiative with a pair of heels with the logos and numbers of the Houston Area Womens Center - I’m not too sure on that. Hannah and Janice McNair have been on those committees since the David Carr days. 

Note the date - Watson was preparing to start for the Texans vs the Tennessee Titans the following week (one of the few wins on the season). So this isn’t exactly some step to take to distance themselves from Watson.

13 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

30 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Not all of us are fans of Pittsburgh.

https://www.wdrb.com/news/houston-texans-minority-owner-facing-rape-charge-stemming-from-parties-at-his-louisville-home/article_003cea5e-3555-11ee-b5ae-db83af2cd5f4.html

Dis y’all?

I didn’t even know who this individual was until these charges hit. 

If your argument is that no franchise has a clean house, you’re absolutely right - everyone has a problem. However, not every franchise makes their problem the face of the franchise and gives them an unprecedented contract. That’s limited to Pittsburgh and Cleveland, AFAIK.

As for the Texans - they didn’t exactly trade picks or pay Javier Aliya a fully guaranteed contract:

“We are aware of the serious charges filed in the Commonwealth of Kentucky against Javier Loya, one of our outside limited partners," the team said in a statement, via PFT. "We have agreed with Mr. Loya that while these charges are pending, he will remove himself entirely from any team or league activities”

[ET80]

18 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

And @ET80 to be clear, I’m not trying to crap on the Texans in any way.  I’m just pointing out this isn’t a one or two team issue.  The whole league has questionable morals and standards.

You can either accept that this is the reality of the sport or find a new hobby imo.

I get that - but to my knowledge, only 2-3 franchises REWARDED people with these questionable issues. Lewis, Roethlensberger and Watson. 

Watson is the genuine outlier here because Cleveland paid him AFTER the accusations. Lewis has his situation while he was a member of the Ravens, Roethlensberger was a member of the Steelers - Watson initially said NO to Cleveland when teams were bidding on him, but they went YOLO and threw an obscene amount of money at him… all AFTER the accusations came up. 

Baltimore and Pittsburgh had situations put on them. They chose to manage their specific way (right, wrong or indifferent). Cleveland KNEW what it was getting itself into. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

I get that - but to my knowledge, only 2-3 franchises REWARDED people with these questionable issues. Lewis, Roethlensberger and Watson. 

Watson is the genuine outlier here because Cleveland paid him AFTER the accusations. Lewis has his situation while he was a member of the Ravens, Roethlensberger was a member of the Steelers - Watson initially said NO to Cleveland when teams were bidding on him, but they went YOLO and threw an obscene amount of money at him… all AFTER the accusations came up. 

Baltimore and Pittsburgh had situations put on them. They chose to manage their specific way (right, wrong or indifferent). Cleveland KNEW what it was getting itself into. 

It wasn’t just Cleveland after Watson though.  14 (iirc) teams called and 5 (again, iirc) presented acceptable offers to the Texans for Watson which I assume included an extension as that was one of his requests.

I get Cleveland “won” the negotiations and they’re gonna live with the fallout good or bad, but it’s not as if half of the league (the half that isn’t set with a franchise guy) wasn’t interested in doing something similar.

My point is simply these aren’t the only teams who are fine with questionable people as long as they’re good at football. Watson, Ben, Lewis, Mixon, Simmons, Hardy, whoever.  
 

And this doesn’t even take into account the questionable things plenty of these owners likely did to become billionaires in the first place.

[ET80]

2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

It wasn’t just Cleveland after Watson though.  14 (iirc) teams called and 5 (again, iirc) presented acceptable offers to the Texans for Watson which I assume included an extension as that was one of his requests.

The Texans wouldn’t have been included on any extension discussion - the only thing the Texans were concerned about were the picks involved with the trade. Anything beyond that would be between Watson and the Browns.

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I get Cleveland “won” the negotiations and they’re gonna live with the fallout good or bad, but it’s not as if half of the league (the half that isn’t set with a franchise guy) wasn’t interested in doing something similar.

AFAIK, Cleveland is the only one who put money behind their offer, which is what prompted the about face. THAT action - saying no to Cleveland and then turning around and saying yes to Cleveland - makes me believe nobody else put monetary backing behind their deal.

Watson was already due the 2nd highest QB contract in history during negotiations between everyone. I can’t really say whether or not anyone else added in an extension, but I only know of one team that got a definitive NO in the process - and that was Cleveland.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/sports/pro/browns/2022/03/17/browns-lose-deshaun-watson-trade-sweepstakes-nfl-free-agency-saints-falcons-panthers/7071254001/

12 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

My point is simply these aren’t the only teams who are fine with questionable people as long as they’re good at football. Watson, Ben, Lewis, Mixon, Simmons, Hardy, whoever.  

But only a handful of them paid said player after questionable actions took place. Cleveland is one of those. (Cincy - by virtue of drafting Mixon - is one as well). 

I agree with what you’re saying in principle, but do you see what I’m saying here? If Cleveland came in with a massive deal and trade package for Watson before Tony Buzbee came up with his allegations, then this is akin to Ben/Ray. 

Cleveland has the advantage of hindsight to who this person is - and STILL went after him. Others did too, but the perception is that only Cleveland came in with a serious monetary offer to go from a NO to a YES. 

[Rod Johnson]

20 minutes ago, ET80 said:

My point is that majority of us felt empathy for the Browns, and we all collectively waited for things to turn around. That’s not the case anymore, and this continued ineptitude is now something we look forward to.

Sounds like conversations I have about JJ Watt or Andre Johnson, to be blunt. Truth hurts - it’s not supposed to be fun. But I can at least recognize that the Texans did in fact waste the careers of those two. I’m not here to buy into delusions of grandeur; Two HoF talents wasted much of their time in Houston. That’s reality. Not fun, but it’s true if I’m go with muse.

It almost feels like you want us to buy into some level of delusion when talking about Thomas?  What narrative SHOULD we discuss? 

But if you lose with someone who is as hated as Deshaun Watson, you become worse than lovable losers. That’s sort of our point here, we now hope for this to continue. You’re hated… WITHOUT the winning.

You’re staying in that place regardless. 

Other people's empathy is cheap and fleeting anyways, "lovable" is for everybody else, "losers" is for the Cleveland Browns. There's no real tragedy in losing other people's empathy that was contingent on you perpetually failing all the time. Most the NFL general fan base rejoicing when we smacked the Steelers in the playoffs isn't really changing the joy we felt in 2020. These things are, at best, in the periphery of many Browns fans experiences, especially when Cleveland Browns fandom usually is rooted in regional pride and familial ties, and not moral goodness, logic, or faith in a completely dysfunctional organization.

It has nothing to do with what narrative about Joe Thomas SHOULD be discussed. It's about what the narrative inescapably is, and how the universal recognition of their ineptitude did not start with the Watson trade. It's not about how things SHOULD be, it's about what is.

[Rod Johnson]

51 minutes ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

I don’t get it. Has to be on coaching. Stefanskis passing plays are garbage. Very little route development. He calls sideline fades for small WRs like Elijah Moore and marquise goodwin. He calls like 2 TE screens a game that go no where.  He didnt take advantage of having an elite rb behind him by running when Chubb was healthy when he should have been running heavy rpo and play action. Then he tries these stupid trick plays every game where it looks like the offense has barely even practice and they got no where. I really wish haslam would have forced hired bill Obrian as an OC and forced Stefanski to give up play calling to him. At least he knew how to play Watson. 

The easy throws were there all day against the Bengals, I don't know if I'll be diving into the Steelers game enough to evaluate that again. Teams are going to send 5 and play 2 high safety all day against Watson until he can make the easy throws underneath. He's been the most inaccurate QB in the NFL thus far, and I'm not a huge Stefanski believer but it will be slightly tragic when we have to cut ties with somebody who made Brissett and Mayfield look viable at times because Deshaun can't find the open guy on time or get the ball to them accurately.

[Rod Johnson]

1 hour ago, iknowcool said:

It doesn't make sense for Watson, at 28 years old, to go from being what he was in Houston to becoming a crap starter.  And I'm not sure you can point fingers at rust.  He played 6 games to close out last year and had a full offseason this year.  He looked better returning from Torn ACLs in college and in the NFL.

Which makes me think that after being an adored athlete his entire life (Watson's character was considered one of his best traits coming out of Clemson and nobody ever had a bad thing to say about him), he is not handling the hate well (which he brought onto himself with his decisions) and it has wrecked his psyche.  

 

The answer could lie in the amount of work he put in when he was coming off his ACL injuries vs. not playing this recent stint. Or playing against tougher defenses that have had years to adjust to mobile QBs. Or his psyche. Who knows? The effort is there on game day but we don't see what he's been doing the last two years off the field. 2 facemasking penalties seems to indicate he's extremely frustrated though.

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

Other people's empathy is cheap and fleeting anyways, "lovable" is for everybody else, "losers" is for the Cleveland Browns. There's no real tragedy in losing other people's empathy that was contingent on you perpetually failing all the time.

Great - so Cleveland is just “losers” now. Makes it easier for the rest of us. 

5 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

It has nothing to do with what narrative about Joe Thomas SHOULD be discussed. It's about what the narrative inescapably is…

This is the narrative… because it’s the TRUTH. Joe Thomas never played on a winning team. Sorry that facts hurt your feelings. Can’t really help you with that. 

8 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

It's not about how things SHOULD be, it's about what is.

What IS - is that the Cleveland Browns are the worst franchise in sports. That’s just fact. Let’s call a spade a spade. As I said earlier, these are the quiet parts we’re now going to say out loud. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

12 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

Other people's empathy is cheap and fleeting anyways, "lovable" is for everybody else, "losers" is for the Cleveland Browns. There's no real tragedy in losing other people's empathy that was contingent on you perpetually failing all the time.

The 'loveable' part of the losing wasn't the franchise.

Losing makes fans appreciate winning, and grateful people are easier to connect with. It's not pity that if given a choice between a 30 year old Pats and and 30 year old Browns fan my first instinct is the Browns fan will be a better person to hang out with. Trust fund babies suck and winning makes fans intolerable.

And that only stops when the team starts winning if you as a fan let it get to your head.

[Rod Johnson]

6 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Great - so Cleveland is just “losers” now. Makes it easier for the rest of us. 

This is the narrative… because it’s the TRUTH. Joe Thomas never played on a winning team. Sorry that facts hurt your feelings. Can’t really help you with that. 

What IS - is that the Cleveland Browns are the worst franchise in sports. That’s just fact. Let’s call a spade a spade. As I said earlier, these are the quiet parts we’re now going to say out loud. 

It doesn't hurt my feelings that there is some imaginary narrative in other fans heads that Browns fans were getting enjoyment from being terrible. That speaks to how delusional and narcissistic other fans are.

[ET80]

9 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

It doesn't hurt my feelings that there is some imaginary narrative in other fans heads that Browns fans were getting enjoyment from being terrible.

Please show me where anyone suggested this part. Everyone knows you’re miserable for losing - nobody likes to lose.

But there was a ray of hope that some day, that would change for Cleveland. Now maybe you don’t care that others are pulling for that, but that’s not what’s been discussed.

[MWil23]

38 minutes ago, ET80 said:

This is the narrative… because it’s the TRUTH. Joe Thomas never played on a winning team. Sorry that facts hurt your feelings. Can’t really help you with that. 

His rookie year they went 10-6