Josh McDaniels and Dave Ziegler are a problem - What should Mark do?

[Styrian Raider]

3 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

Well, I think something that was completely underrated. During that time is he had some of the worst luck with injuries I've ever seen. Different key people got hurt on both sides of the ball. Also, he went to the playoffs the year after the Super Bowl. So we're really talking about three years.

And in theory, of the retreads that are out there(and most that have gotten new jobs besides Doug Pederson) it would be pretty clear that he's the most deserving.

that said, if I'm gonna get a second shot at head-coaching, I wouldn't come here. Because now you're walking into a post patriot roster situation where without an exception of a few players, most of the players only really work for patriot like  teams.

Personally I would also see Brian Flores as option, who can build a defense. And I also think he did a pretty good job with the Dolphins.

 

[Tank4Drake]

7 minutes ago, Styrian Raider said:

Personally I would also see Brian Flores as option, who can build a defense. And I also think he did a pretty good job with the Dolphins.

 

No. Brian Flores is a fraud. He almost ran Tua out of town, it was clear they had friction. He’s another McDaniels, a poor leader that doesn’t know how to develop or utilize talent and throws people under the bus. Extremely passive aggressive. And the Vikings probably have the worst defense in the NFL right now. No. More. Retread. Head. Coaches. 

[Tank4Drake]

2 hours ago, jpaulthe1st said:

Your obsession with @big_palooka has now become weird. You legitimately follow that man from thread to thread trying to get a reaction and actually tag him to pick fights. Let that man live bruh 

 

 

I agree with you. Following posters and trolling/harassing is not cool. I dealt with it with NYRaider for like 3 weeks before… but he chilled out and back to one of my favorites. And obviously BP himself which went on for months 😅 I’m glad he chilled out with me because I just wanna talk football and I respect his view and opinion. I’m hyperbole and dramatic a lot, just my style of posting. But I also feel I’m an early adopter of opinions before others get on board. I’ve been off the Carr train for a long time, everyone eventually jumped off that train, just took them longer. All love to everyone though, this is the calmest this subforum has been in years. The Carr fans vs Carr critics was toxic. Hopefully we can build a winning team, winning solves everything. Being a fan is like a business and like we are co-workers. If the business is running poorly, we bicker and argue. 

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I’m similar. This will probably enrage some people, but I can see McDaniels doing some nice things on offence and like the Playcalling mostly - the odd pkay like the 4th down field goal excluded obviously- but I think we’re really being let down at this moment by QB play. Now, our previous guy wasn’t good last year but at least we were able to keep the defence honest and that allowed Jacobs to do his thing. 

The biggest problem for me is that the QB is not managing the game better and looking after the ball which was promised but with the added negative in that it’s also negating our run game which was our lifeblood last year as defences don’t respect our deep game at all. So we’re not better at managing the game whilst also turning the ball over more and paralysing our run game. 

Garoppolo simply has to sort this out, if he doesn’t then McDaniels and Ziegler are culpable as they hand picked him and it’s handicapping the offence which could be really good.

Agreed. He has 3 WRs that are top tier to elite route runners. They are getting open effortlessly in some cases. I've seen Hooper/Mayer get separation in their routes as well. He has to start findings these guys or they need to move to a QB that can. 

I think Jimmy G is better than what he's shown, but he has to sort it out quick.

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, Jeremy408 said:

It's not just players they sign but also players that they draft they usually & sign draft players that don't really work anywhere else. I feel examples besides the ones you mentioned would be like Abdullah Jakobi Meyers Tyree Wilson basically every defensive tackle we've signed or drafted so far. They're usually either....

A. Guys that are smart & versatile in that they can play 2 positions average but don't do any of them well because they lack of overall talent

or

B. Are one dimensional role players that do one thing well. 

It comes from the whole do your job mantra but that only works when you have a super quarterback. 

It's partially why I suspect we didn't draft Jalen Carter(who if you are trying to make a team but went with Tyree Wilson. He is one of those versatile types that's not good at either of the things that he can supposedly do. 

So by the time there's a new coach, doesn't really any actual talent and most of those guys end up just getting cut

Like if you think about it the most talented players(not to be confused with best players but are sometimes the same) we have weren't brought in by Josh Daniels and Dave Ziegler.  They come from old regime(the exception being Bennett(that pick surprised me because he doesn't fit the patriot bill)

Also someone may mention the Davante Adams pick but remember he came to play with car so I don't think it mattered who the coach or FO was under those circumstances.

Another thing that happens is that they trade all of the talented players away and at first they're always "justified" to as "not conforming to the patriot Way" by the media and fan bases. Then when the patriot disable inevitably gets fired, theres nothing but these patriot players left.

I don't see any players who can't be cut outright or wouldn't fit with another scheme personally. Jimmy G is the only one financially tied to the team. 

[Styrian Raider]

2 minutes ago, Tank4Drake said:

No. Brian Flores is a fraud. He almost ran Tua out of town, it was clear they had friction. He’s another McDaniels, a poor leader that doesn’t know how to develop or utilize talent and throws people under the bus. Extremely passive aggressive. And the Vikings probably have the worst defense in the NFL right now. No. More. Retread. Head. Coaches. 

Started his first season 0-7 and ended that season with a 5-4 record. Also they traded away all of their assets.

Second season he turned the record to a 10-6.

IMO that screama development. Only Problem you have is that he doesn't liked Tua as his QB.

Vikings defense looks horrible now but so did the Dolphins D looked in his first season.

And every available HC with experience is somehow a retread.

[Tank4Drake]

Just now, Styrian Raider said:

Started his first season 0-7 and ended that season with a 5-4 record. Also they traded away all of their assets.

Second season he turned the record to a 10-6.

IMO that screama development. Only Problem you have is that he doesn't liked Tua as his QB.

Vikings defense looks horrible now but so did the Dolphins D looked in his first season.

And every available HC with experience is somehow a retread.

Also no way NFL is doing Flores any favors after the lawsuit. His team will never get a favorable call. Was the same with Snyder and Al Davis. 

[Styrian Raider]

30 minutes ago, Tank4Drake said:

Also no way NFL is doing Flores any favors after the lawsuit. His team will never get a favorable call. Was the same with Snyder and Al Davis. 

We're the Raiders - I see no difference to now. 🤐

[ronjon1990]

51 minutes ago, Tank4Drake said:

No. Brian Flores is a fraud. He almost ran Tua out of town, it was clear they had friction. He’s another McDaniels, a poor leader that doesn’t know how to develop or utilize talent and throws people under the bus. Extremely passive aggressive. And the Vikings probably have the worst defense in the NFL right now. No. More. Retread. Head. Coaches. 

The job Mike McDaniel has done with Miami so quickly tells all that needs to be told about Brian Flores, imo. Just another Belichick-lite. 

I gotta disagree slightly on the retread HC bit though. There are a few I would accept as culture guys if there's no bang bang candidate without a past present. But the list is purely of guys who at least had success before in bad situations they inherited. Anyone who had a chance and made their own mess need not apply. 

36 minutes ago, Styrian Raider said:

Started his first season 0-7 and ended that season with a 5-4 record. Also they traded away all of their assets.

Second season he turned the record to a 10-6.

IMO that screama development. Only Problem you have is that he doesn't liked Tua as his QB.

Vikings defense looks horrible now but so did the Dolphins D looked in his first season.

And every available HC with experience is somehow a retread.

I agree on the retread part. There are some guys out there who warrant a second look because they were more or less scapegoats. A guy like Jim Tomsula (to be clear, he's  a reference, not a preference) who inherited a no-win situation and was immediately out the door would be acceptable enough for a short run to build up the culture and stuff. Bill, Andy Reid, Pete Carroll, so on so forth were all "retreads" at one point. Not all are terrible hires. 

Gotta agree with @Tank4Drake on Flores in particular though. Yes, Miami got some results, but they were a dysfunctional crowd from top to bottom. Flores didn't do himself any favors with how things played out, and his job performances since then have been uninspiring- making it look just that much worse on him. 

Moreover, he's not just any retread. He's a Patriot Way retread. For me, that's an instant "no". He could redeem himself as a DC if the Vikes turn around, and I wouldn't mind him being on staff. But I want nothing to do with a Belichick tree assistant as our HC ever again. 

To me, it even goes beyond the record on the field. His allegations pretty much amount to not wanting to be micromanaged and to do things his way (that is, along with the other allegations that we won't get into here). Yet, the moves made from the purported pressure above him seem to have worked out exceptionally well for Miami and almost every one of those moves run diametrically opposed to the vision and preferences Flores himself had. To me, Miami did more winning in spite of Flores than they did because of him. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by ronjon1990

[Styrian Raider]

6 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

The job Mike McDaniel has done with Miami so quickly tells all that needs to be told about Brian Flores, imo. Just another Belichick-lite. 

I gotta disagree slightly on the retread HC bit though. There are a few I would accept as culture guys if there's no bang bang candidate without a past present. But the list is purely of guys who at least had success before in bad situations they inherited. Anyone who had a chance and made their own mess need not apply. 

I agree on the retread part. There are some guys out there who warrant a second look because they were more or less scapegoats. A guy like Jim Tomsula (to be clear, he's  a reference, not a preference) who inherited a no-win situation and was immediately out the door would be acceptable enough for a short run to build up the culture and stuff. Bill, Andy Reid, Pete Carroll, so on so forth were all "retreads" at one point. Not all are terrible hires. 

Gotta agree with @Tank4Drake on Flores in particular though. Yes, Miami got some results, but they were a dysfunctional crowd from top to bottom. Flores didn't do himself any favors with how things played out, and his job performances since then have been uninspiring- making it look just that much worse on him. 

Moreover, he's not just any retread. He's a Patriot Way retread. For me, that's an instant "no". He could redeem himself as a DC if the Vikes turn around, and I wouldn't mind him being on staff. But I want nothing to do with a Belichick tree assistant as our HC ever again. 

Well he has a past as Patriots assistent coach, yes but does that really mean that he is a "patriots way" guy?

[Darbsk]

Ok so here’s a hypothetical. What if Bill Bellichick is available if the Pats miss out on the playoffs? Do we jump at the chance of one of the greatest defensive coaches in history, does the ‘Patriot way’ matter then? Is he past it?  Imagine the satire 🤨

[ronjon1990]

2 minutes ago, Styrian Raider said:

Well he has a past as Patriots assistent coach, yes but does that really mean that he is a "patriots way" guy?

Don't take it from me, I don't opine very often. Take it from former players and the horse's own mouth:

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2019/05/15/dolphins-eric-rowe-comfortable-in-brian-flores-patriot-way-as-he-competes-for-starting-cornerback-spot/

https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2020/12/brian-flores-explains-dolphins-culture-that-isnt-far-from-the-patriot-way.html

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/brian-flores-confident-history-belichick-coaching-tree/484767

 

Like McDaniels, he's great at talking the talk about "being his own man" and "willing to deviate from the core values when needed".....yet that preaching never gets put to practice. Core values? Like winning and accountability? The same core values everyone says they want to instill? No, he means core values as the Patriots way of doing things- being rigid as hell, throwing players under the bus by being mum and not being accountable. 

And that's the issue with all of these Pats guys that cut their teeth through the Brady years: Times were great and Bill Belichick was a God who never had to answer the hard questions. The hardest thing Bill had to do was every other year or so talk about why they weren't going to the Superbowl. 

His associates don't know how to build or lose or be accountable because they were just never held accountable. It wasn't necessary, because practically every other year they were playing for another ring and everything was copacetic again. They can preach all day long about being accountable, and hey, maybe their even sincere about it and it keeps them up late at night. But the fact remains that they've never been ones to actually fix anything wrong. They don't know how, because there was just almost never anything that absolutely needed to be fixed in New England with any sort of regularity. 

So what do they do? They stick to their guns, talk mantra, wind up throwing players under the bus because it couldn't possibly be them or the system that's flawed, things go south and eventually everything hits rock bottom. Even New England itself looks like a pretty dysfunctional mess without Brady. That's the Brady effect. There was certainly some things the Patriots did right over the years, but they don't have as many rings without Tom being there as a consistent metric of excellence. I can comfortably say that because we've seen the knock off replicas fail time and time again for the same reasons while now seeing the same to an admittedly lesser degree in New England itself. 

So, yes, Flores is a Patriots Way guy through and through and, no, I want zilch to do with him. 

[ronjon1990]

13 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Ok so here’s a hypothetical. What if Bill Bellichick is available if the Pats miss out on the playoffs? Do we jump at the chance of one of the greatest defensive coaches in history, does the ‘Patriot way’ matter then? Is he past it?  Imagine the satire 🤨

The guy who named Matt Patricia OC amd actually went through a season with that? 

No f'n way. He either was never that good (I doubt it) or he's old amd his mind has slipped too much to make the shrewd decisions that worked out well for so long (I don't doubt it). 

It won't ever get to that point, but if Bill coached another 20 years, I think he'd be a sad parody of himself by the end of it.

Dude is like Ric Flair- was great in his prime and his legacy is unquestionable, but stuck around too long and eventually became more of an embarrassment than Ric F'n Flair, jet flyin' limousine ridin' kiss stealin' wheelin' dealin' son of a gun. 

Bill won't stick around that long past his prime, but he's starting to trend in that general direction. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by ronjon1990

[101Raider]

Watching bits of the Dolphins game, who is out there from the Shanahan coaching tree?

[Humble_Beast]

I would be interested to see Patrick Graham in a head coach role once we fire McDaniels to finish out the year.   We need to hire the Dolphins OC, Frank Smith. He was a coach here. Maybe hire someone from the Eagles scouting department to be the Assistant GM/ Vice President . Hire Tom Brady as team president/Co GM/ and spokesman. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Humble_Beast