Josh McDaniels and Dave Ziegler are a problem - What should Mark do?

[MrOaktown_56]

46 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

It's true, most the time we agree more often than not. 

Hard to defend the regime after last week. I see no positive signs at this point. I tried to be less cynical in relation to the Raiders this go around. And bought the coaching hype McDaniels has accumulated over the years. In theory, it sounded good. In practice it's not worked to this point.

Carr, Waller, and now Renfrow are now seemingly on their way out. And the worst part is, we've downgraded at every one of those positions. I like some of DZ's defensive moves, but I have no faith that these guys will pick the right qb next year. Especially McDaniels.

[Jerry]

4 hours ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

I read he was ranked third.

Click bait.

[RaidersAreOne]

https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/the-black-hole-plus/josh-mcdaniels-bill-belichick-tom-brady-las-vegas-raiders-maxx-crosby-davante-adams

Hondo speculating the lockerroom may be lost....

Quote

 

The team might no longer be buying what Josh McDaniel has been selling.

Moments after I walked out of the Las Vegas Raiders' locker room after their embarrassing loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers, it was clear this is not the team it had been since the door shut to end the 2022 NFL season.

 

Quote

 

I asked an NFL general manager on Monday morning about McDaniels decision, and he told me: "I like Josh. I have said a lot of good things to you about Josh. But I have to tell ya, it was an absolutely terrible decision, and had it been my coach, we would be meeting today about his future. Inexcusable.”

 

Quote

But it was different walking out of the locker room after the loss to the Steelers. No one said anything to question McDaniels, but the room was different. There are many ways to assess it, and in this article, we will endeavor to assess the state of the Silver and Black franchise after 20 games with McDaniels at the helm.

A lot more to unpack in the article. 

[NickButera]

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/01/31/bill-belichick-early-years-new-england-patriots

 

This is a fantastic article about how BB's career started. The parallels to what is going on here is scary similar. I mean, it sounds like their talking about our team when they talk about BB's first year and 4 games. 

However, the biggest difference is when they talk about how BB's genius began winning games. I don't know if that's something that can be replicated. It begins and ends with BB. You can't pick up his style of coaching without his intellect. 

 

"He was specifically referencing the turbulent stretch between January 27, 2000, when Bill Belichick became head coach of the Patriots, and Oct. 7, 2001, when New England was beaten 30-10 in Miami to fall to 1-3. That made Belichick 6-14 over his first 20 games as New England’s head coach.......“It was rough,” Mangini, then the Patriots’ defensive backs coach, says. “We went into New England and it wasn’t well received. People seem to forget how negatively received the whole thing was. “You had Bill coming off the negative Cleveland experience, the trade [of Belichick from the Jets] and all the things that went into it. Then we go 5-11, start 2001 slow......

....."he would sit the offense and defense down in a room together and explain the three things each side of the ball would need to do in order to win. “And no s--- man, it just started to work out that way,” says Johnson. “It was then you really saw how much smarter he was than everybody else."

[big_palooka]

3 hours ago, NickButera said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/01/31/bill-belichick-early-years-new-england-patriots

 

This is a fantastic article about how BB's career started. The parallels to what is going on here is scary similar. I mean, it sounds like their talking about our team when they talk about BB's first year and 4 games. 

However, the biggest difference is when they talk about how BB's genius began winning games. I don't know if that's something that can be replicated. It begins and ends with BB. You can't pick up his style of coaching without his intellect. 

 

"He was specifically referencing the turbulent stretch between January 27, 2000, when Bill Belichick became head coach of the Patriots, and Oct. 7, 2001, when New England was beaten 30-10 in Miami to fall to 1-3. That made Belichick 6-14 over his first 20 games as New England’s head coach.......“It was rough,” Mangini, then the Patriots’ defensive backs coach, says. “We went into New England and it wasn’t well received. People seem to forget how negatively received the whole thing was. “You had Bill coming off the negative Cleveland experience, the trade [of Belichick from the Jets] and all the things that went into it. Then we go 5-11, start 2001 slow......

....."he would sit the offense and defense down in a room together and explain the three things each side of the ball would need to do in order to win. “And no s--- man, it just started to work out that way,” says Johnson. “It was then you really saw how much smarter he was than everybody else."

Great find. So we are at the veteran QB gets hurt, elevate the kid picked 135 in the draft part of this story. The rest will be history! 

The questions is, can that approach work the same way it did 23 years ago. The game and this generation of athlete are different. Winning fixes everything. Winning would earn them a ton of good faith and that is really what they need right now to have any shot at keeping their vision on track. 

That said, the core difference is Bill is smart. And McDaniels thinks he's smart. Until the team sees that you really are smart as was the case of Bill, they won't buy in completely. And right now, he's outsmarting himself. 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by big_palooka

[NickButera]

2 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Great find. So we are at the veteran QB gets hurt, elevate the kid picked 135 in the draft part of this story. The rest will be history! The questions is, can that approach work the same way it did 23 years ago. The game and this generation of athlete are different. Winning fixes everything. Winning would earn them a ton of good faith and that is really what they need right now to have any shot at keeping their vision on track. 

 

Agreed, but it's all dependent if McDaniels can find those 3 vulnerabilities that, if exploited, win us the game. It's proven to work, you just have to have a smart enough HC I suppose. 

[big_palooka]

3 minutes ago, NickButera said:

Agreed, but it's all dependent if McDaniels can find those 3 vulnerabilities that, if exploited, win us the game. It's proven to work, you just have to have a smart enough HC I suppose. 

I actually edited my post to reflect exactly that. That's the difference. Bill is smart, sees it all. Can't say that for McDaniels to this point. 

[Jeremy408]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:46 PM, big_palooka said:

It's true, most the time we agree more often than not. 

Hard to defend the regime after last week. I see no positive signs at this point. I tried to be less cynical in relation to the Raiders this go around. And bought the coaching hype McDaniels has accumulated over the years. In theory, it sounded good. In practice it's not worked to this point.

I can respect this similar to the conclusion that @Frankie2Gunz came to last year. It's one of those things that just doesn't work outside of New England because of extraordinary circumstances. We just can't choose whatever is next, if it has already proven not to work

[Frankie2Gunz]

42 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

I can respect this similar to the conclusion that @Frankie2Gunz came to last year. It's one of those things that just doesn't work outside of New England because of extraordinary circumstances. We just can't choose whatever is next, if it has already proven not to work

I was optimistic when the HC/GM combo was announced and in theory I still believe it can beneficial if the two are actually good at their jobs.  I also was optimistic that Josh had learned something after his embarrassing stint in Denver but he clearly did not.  Once the product hit the field last year they showed glimpses of above average play, particularly in the 1st half of games but they lacked consistency.  I was hoping they would show more consistency as the season wore on but they never did.  By the end of the season it was very clear that JM had no clue what he was doing as a HC.  

I also couldn't understand what their plan was during the 1st offseason.   I was very clear that this was not a playoff team and JM treated the roster like it was and went all in with the Adams and Jones moves.  I wasn't a fan of the Adams or Jones moves from a long term, team prospective but I at least thought the O would be fun to watch and at times it was but they lacked consistency.  It's also hard to be consistent when you're always playing catch up playing behind an abysmal D that is yielding 27+ pts a game.  He neglected to bolster the Oline and D which has proved to be major weaknesses on this squad and was something I was vocal about bolstering.  

On the bright side it appears he will be canned and I would be surprised if he lasts until the end of the season.  Like I have said all off season this is a 4ish win team and they are proving to be exactly that.  Hopefully this sets up for a new HC/GM that actually knows how to call games and manage assets.  JM being such a hack should line us up to draft a young signal caller come draft day.  I hope we are bad enough to land #1 overall and we draft a game changing QB who will be coached by a Shanahan/M. McDaniel type of OC or HC.

[Devilshark69]

That’s it, I tried to hope. But at this point I’m done. I remember watching bledsoe get his lung collapsed, then Brady.....bang they were officially in it every year. Mcdaniels just ain’t it. And that sucks because it’s 2 more crappy years on a huge pile of crappy years. Smh

[Darbsk]

On 9/28/2023 at 12:46 AM, RaidersAreOne said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/raiders/the-black-hole-plus/josh-mcdaniels-bill-belichick-tom-brady-las-vegas-raiders-maxx-crosby-davante-adams

Hondo speculating the lockerroom may be lost....

A lot more to unpack in the article. 

Wasn’t he extolling the virtues of the Raiders culture change just a couple weeks ago, how everyone was on the same page and buying in and there was a totally different feel to the team this year, he made a big point of it in a couple videos and the leasership of guys like Epps and Garoppolo and Spillane? 

[NickButera]

7 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Wasn’t he extolling the virtues of the Raiders culture change just a couple weeks ago, how everyone was on the same page and buying in and there was a totally different feel to the team this year, he made a big point of it in a couple videos and the leasership of guys like Epps and Garoppolo and Spillane? 

He's been spouting how much buy in and comradery there's been, culture has changed, etc. Losing changes everything though

[Darbsk]

33 minutes ago, NickButera said:

He's been spouting how much buy in and comradery there's been, culture has changed, etc. Losing changes everything though

Well, yes but it’s only two losses and if there was a real paradigm shift then the team would still believe, backs against the wall and tighten as a group, us against them and all that. Either he was exaggerating the buy in earlier in the season or he’s exaggerating the current fallout imo as the two don’t go hand in hand.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Darbsk

[FloydFan]

8 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Well, yes but it’s only two losses and if there was a real paradigm shift then the team would still believe, backs against the wall and tighten as a group, us against them and all that. Either he was exaggerating the buy in earlier in the season or he’s exaggerating the current fallout imo as the two don’t go hand in hand.

I lean towards him seeing the writing on the wall and him exaggerating the buy in earlier but that’s purely speculation on my part. 

[big_palooka]

35 minutes ago, FloydFan said:

I lean towards him seeing the writing on the wall and him exaggerating the buy in earlier but that’s purely speculation on my part. 

I see it the same as I did last year. You're going to get buy in from guys like Adams, Maxx, Jacobs and other guys who will grind regardless of circumstance. This system/culture adopted from Belichick demands that kind of player who love the works.   

Guys who want to leave after practice to go play Xbox are not going to like it.

Which is the question I had after @NickButera posted that Bill Belichick article. Can this approach work in the current NFL where players are less "do your job" and more individualistic.