Need one of these CB's - the best of the rest

[MantyWrestler]

Just now, Mr. Fussnputz said:

How do you guys rate Pipkins and Waters compared to the CBs left in FA? Is it possible that who is left are no better than Pipkins and Waters? 

I don’t think anyone can say except for the coaches. I do remember the Packers coaches continually commenting about Waters last year. It appears they really like the kid. That said I remember the same scenario with Shields and that worked out. I’ll put this out there that I have a feeling based on coaches comments that Waters will surprise us all and coins be the 3rd CB. 

[Gopackgonerd]

1 minute ago, MantyWrestler said:

Woodson was a corner, James is not a corner. Don’t even see him as a slot. 

I was just comparing Woodsons role when our defense was great in 09'/10'. Kinda surprised you don't see him in the slot, guy was a monster in the slot in college. He'd be perfect in that role imo.

[Rodjahs12]

James will be a better player if he’s played in the slot full time than he’ll be if hes asked to play strictly safety. I’d personally ask him to play the slot on first and second downs and let him roam back on 3rd and long situations but you can’t really go wrong. Kid is going to get a ton of sacks for a secondary player off that left slide.

[CWood21]

19 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Generally the second-tier CB group (i.e. not as many solid EDGE guys). It goes back to the original question though. I say no doubt Landry will be available. I'd be shocked if he goes before 14. OTOH, I'll be surprised if Ward is there at 14. If the need on our team is equal (which right now, our NEED leans CB), but even if equal, I'd go Ward. I sense a bigger difference in Ward vs. 2nd tier CB than Landry vs. 2nd tier EDGE even if I think the 2nd tier CB group > 2nd tier EDGE group. 

Put in into a simple number terminology. Ward might be a 8 and Landry a 7. A 2nd tier CB might be a 5 and a 2nd tier EDGE guy a 3. Which do you prefer, the greater sum (Landry + 2nd tier CB = 12) or the best player (Ward =8)?

That kind of goes back to my whole argument.  You have to look at the ENTIRE picture, not just a single pick.  Sure, you might get a slightly higher graded player but you've essentially punted the other position to next year.  And we're operating under the assumption that Ward.

As for your analogy, would you take Landry/Tier 2 CB (12 points) or Ward/Tier 2 EDGE (11 points)?

[Mr. Fussnputz]

1 minute ago, MantyWrestler said:

I don’t think anyone can say except for the coaches. I do remember the Packers coaches continually commenting about Waters last year. It appears they really like the kid. That said I remember the same scenario with Shields and that worked out. I’ll put this out there that I have a feeling based on coaches comments that Waters will surprise us all and coins be the 3rd CB. 

True enough. I just read a piece where Whitt was praising Waters and comparing him to Tramon Williams. I'm thinking the Packer are thinking King and (#14) as boundary corners backed up by Waters and Hawkins. And their second round pick backed up by Pipkins in the slot. Of course that means Pettine has to be OK with the Edge rushers he has.

[Gopackgonerd]

8 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Derwin is certainly in play for us I think. Just hard for me to see anything but CB right now given where we are at. In a few weeks, hopefully our depth chart is different and that should free us up to go elsewhere in the 1st round. Hopefully we have to make that tough decision to choose between at least two of these four: Ward, Landry, James, Davenport. 

Imagine the dream scenario of Ward and Landry there. 

[Leader]

4 hours ago, CWood21 said:

That's where my feelings are as well.  As much as I love Denzel Ward, I don't feel confident in that third tier of pass rushers.  The difference between Harold Landry/Marcus Daveport and Ogbo Okoronkwo/Lorenzo Carter is bigger than the difference between Denzel Ward and Isaiah Oliver/Carlton Davis.

Good info to have. Thanks.

[Rodjahs12]

I’d prefer a Ward/Carter first 2 rounds wayyy over a Landry/Oliver for the sake of argument.

 

That being said Carter wouldnt be considered a tier 2 edge rusher if Georgia asked him to rush more than they did.

[Gopackgonerd]

2 minutes ago, Rodjahs12 said:

James will be a better player if he’s played in the slot full time than he’ll be if hes asked to play strictly safety. I’d personally ask him to play the slot on first and second downs and let him roam back on 3rd and long situations but you can’t really go wrong. Kid is going to get a ton of sacks for a secondary player off that left slide.

I'm really high on the guy, apparently he's an alpha leader as well which is what we need on Defense.

[packfanfb]

Just now, CWood21 said:

That kind of goes back to my whole argument.  You have to look at the ENTIRE picture, not just a single pick.  Sure, you might get a slightly higher graded player but you've essentially punted the other position to next year.  And we're operating under the assumption that Ward.

As for your analogy, would you take Landry/Tier 2 CB (12 points) or Ward/Tier 2 EDGE (11 points)?

1. As of today -- Ward because going into the season with King, Rollins, Pipkins, Waters and Hawkins scares me more than being in a dream with Freddie Krueger. Our younger talent at EDGE sucks and it's better than our younger talent at CB (outside of King) IMO.  

2. As of 3 weeks from now if we sign 2 CBs -- Landry. 

3. As of 3 weeks from now and we sign just 1 CB and it's House or Tramon -- probably Ward, but that's more of a 50-50 for me. 

4. As of 3 weeks from now and we sign just 1 CB and its Breeland, Gaines or DRC -- probably Landry. 

I simply cannot make that decision without the context on where we are at the CB position at the time.  

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, Rodjahs12 said:

I’d prefer a Ward/Carter first 2 rounds wayyy over a Landry/Oliver for the sake of argument.

 

That being said Carter wouldnt be considered a tier 2 edge rusher if Georgia asked him to rush more than they did.

Ok...use someone as an example.  Would you still make that choice?

[skibrett15]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

Ok, let's back this one up.  In a vacuum, do you think an EDGE or a CB has a bigger impact on a defense?

I think it depends on the makeup of your team.  I think it's more important to be really good at something on defense than to be just ok to good at a bunch of things.  Because unless you're pretty ok or good at ALL the things (which is kind of the same as being really good at being versatile) then you don't really have much of an edge on the field, no pun intended.

 

Does that make sense?  Call it an identity, call it scheme, call it whatever you want.  If you don't have something that forces the opponent's hand or limits what they do then you play at the mercy of their execution.

 

So I'd say I'd rather have the CB.

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

1. As of today -- Ward because going into the season with King, Rollins, Pipkins, Waters and Hawkins scares me more than being in a dream with Freddie Krueger. Our younger talent at EDGE sucks and it's better than our younger talent at CB (outside of King) IMO.  

2. As of 3 weeks from now if we sign 2 CBs -- Landry. 

3. As of 3 weeks from now and we sign just 1 CB and it's House or Tramon -- probably Ward, but that's more of a 50-50 for me. 

4. As of 3 weeks from now and we sign just 1 CB and its Breeland, Gaines or DRC -- probably Landry. 

I simply cannot make that decision without the context on where we are at the CB position at the time.  

So you've pretty much told me you're willing to overlook overall value in order to fill a need.  Good to know.

[Rodjahs12]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

Ok...use someone as an example.  Would you still make that choice?

My example was quite swayed considering Carter is far and above the rest of tier 2 (Ejiofor, kid from oklahoma who’s name I cant spell, Armstrong,etc) for me. I do agree with your overall point though outside of this one example. I consider Ward/Carter the best first two picks we can realistically make honestly.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

I think it depends on the makeup of your team.  I think it's more important to be really good at something on defense than to be just ok to good at a bunch of things.  Because unless you're pretty ok or good at ALL the things (which is kind of the same as being really good at being versatile) then you don't really have much of an edge on the field, no pun intended.

 

Does that make sense?  Call it an identity, call it scheme, call it whatever you want.  If you don't have something that forces the opponent's hand or limits what they do then you play at the mercy of their execution.

 

So I'd say I'd rather have the CB.

For the Packers, do you think adding a stud EDGE or a stud CB impacts the defense more?