The Often Overbearing, But Otherwise Ordinary Offensive Line

[Krauser]

2 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

No matter what PFF tells you, Pat Elflein was getting pushed backwards often.

He got pushed back often in 2018, because he wasn’t in football shape coming back from his injuries. That wasn’t his problem in 2017 or 2019. It’s Bradbury who struggled with power last year.

It wasn’t a mistake to put Elflein back in the starting lineup heading into his 3rd year. He had one pretty good season under his belt, and a bad second year in which he’d been effectively playing hurt. Expecting him to get back to form in 2019 wasn’t unrealistic or stupid. There’s hardly a team in the league who would’ve planned to relegate him permanently to the bench last year by bringing in a de facto starter ahead of him. And you really think Elflein should’ve been “bottom of the depth chart” behind players like Dozier or Collins? What did those guys do to earn their spots again?

Elflein actually played well last year except for the handful of snaps a game when he lunged and missed with his hands. On his median snap, he was good, probably even above average. The problem is that he had about twice as many lowlights as he should, and they were terrible. He was like a high variance QB, who throws deep and racks up TDs, but also throws way too many INTs (like Fitzpatrick or Winston). His plus plays were very good — he was maybe the 2nd best player on offense in the Washington game, after Cook, even with the cheap holding penalties he took on the last drive and the sack he allowed in the red zone. But his minus plays were very, very bad, and he had seemingly at least one per game. Most fans who complain about the OL don’t watch it closely enough to know what happens on successful plays, but they remember sacks and penalties, and so Elflein has become the scapegoat for last year (he deserves his share of the blame, especially in the Niners game where he was awful, but Bradbury was the weak link last year). 

So even now, there can be some hope that Elflein still turns into a good starter. I wanted them to replace him this year, or at least make him win his spot against a potentially solid option like Reiff if he’d moved inside, or Cleveland if he’d had enough of a preseason to manage a position change to guard while also stepping up to the NFL. The fact that Elflein is now clearly their best guard is a big problem — he might be OK as the one weak link on an otherwise strong line, but instead he’ll be potentially their 2nd or 3rd best OL (assuming Reiff is gone) depending on whether Bradbury improves or a long shot like Udoh pays off.

...

I think the Vikings handled the offseason well in general this year — turning over the CB depth chart, replacing Diggs and adding an impact pass rusher — but they’ve completely botched the guard situation. I don’t hate letting Kline go after multiple concussions and a mediocre year at the age of 30 (probably means something that he’s still unsigned). But they needed to add a starting caliber guard if they didn’t see another likely starter on the roster (like Samia or Collins). Instead, they waited 10 days into free agency without being linked to any of the better UFA options, then signed Dozier for vet minimum, a backup’s contract. And if they thought Dozier was the best option at LG heading into the draft, why were they trying to trade for Trent Williams? And why draft Ezra Cleveland if their succession plan for Reiff was to move O’Neill to the left side? They could have and should have drafted an actual guard, like Jonah Jackson, who was still on the board in the early 3rd round and will be starting as a rookie for the Lions. 

I don’t think Spielman has made many huge mistakes since he got full control of the team and brought in Zimmer — the Bradford trade, the kicker carousel and the 2016 OL construction were my short list of major blunders. I think the OL has more often been the victim of circumstances like injuries than bad management as such.

But this is now the 4th year since they started rebuilding it after the 2016 debacle, and to be facing a season with Dakota Dozier and either Rashod Hill or Oli Udoh as starters is discouraging. It doesn’t seem to be getting better despite the increased investment: players with similar or lower draft capital than Samia and Cleveland are starting this year, while our young guys apparently aren’t good enough to get their feet wet. They’ve at least thrown some resources at the position the last few years, but whether from bad player selection or bad development (O’Neill the exception in both cases), they haven’t gotten it done. 

This is otherwise a fairly solid team, though lacking depth compared to recent years and having to rely on a number of young players to step up. With a good developmental season, they could be legitimate contenders again, as early as next year. But that won’t happen unless they get the OL sorted out, at least to average. And that means they can’t afford more than one Elflein caliber starter, and they need 1-2 more at O’Neill’s level. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Krauser

[JDBrocks]

 

[Krauser]

5 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

 

To be fair, that’s only like 3 weeks. Cleveland has been a left tackle for 3 years, and based on his college tape is probably no worse a starting option (at LT) than Hill or Udoh (at RT) this year.

But it would be insane to start Cleveland without first giving him at least a month or two to practice at tackle. So he probably doesn’t play any sooner than mid-October, if they do move him back to the position where he seems like a better fit. 

[JDBrocks]

1 minute ago, Krauser said:

To be fair, that’s only like 3 weeks. Cleveland has been a left tackle for 3 years, and based on his college tape is probably no worse a starting option (at LT) than Hill or Udoh (at RT) this year.

But it would be insane to start Cleveland without first giving him at least a month or two to practice at tackle. So he probably doesn’t play any sooner than mid-October, if they do move him back to the position where he seems like a better fit. 

For sure. Just sharing the reports  

[Guest]

I know it's a trite saying, but this year, the Vikings will go only as far as the OL will take them.  They have the potential to have an excellent defense.  They have good to very good skill players on offense (no great players.)  The line is unsettled.  This team could go anywhere from 6-10 to 12-4...it depends on what the line does.

[SteelKing728]

53 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

I know it's a trite saying, but this year, the Vikings will go only as far as the OL will take them.  They have the potential to have an excellent defense.  They have good to very good skill players on offense (no great players.)  The line is unsettled.  This team could go anywhere from 6-10 to 12-4...it depends on what the line does.

Or how the coaches scheme the offense to mitigate the apparent weakness of the OL.

Usually we see teams use short, quick throws and not the long developing runs that we were accustomed to when Adrian Peterson was around.

[The Gnat]

Sounds like a restructure is happening with Reiff, so all the complaining was for nothing, though, I'm sure there shall be more.

[SemperFeist]

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by SemperFeist

[SemperFeist]

 

[vikesfan89]

Sure just when I was coming around to the idea of moving O'Neal to LT

[swede700]

11 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

Sure just when I was coming around to the idea of moving O'Neal to LT

At the end of the day, Reiff didn't have much leverage.  He would have been running the risk of not getting signed at all as a free agent, and it would probably haven't been for as much money as he was offered here.  It's certainly unfortunate and he's probably peeved, but "it is what it is."

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SteelKing728 said:

Or how the coaches scheme the offense to mitigate the apparent weakness of the OL.

Usually we see teams use short, quick throws and not the long developing runs that we were accustomed to when Adrian Peterson was around.

I am dubious that schemes can somehow mitigate the weakness of an OL for a whole season.  Eventually, defenders will jump on those short, quick timing routes and they often turn into defensive scores.

[Krauser]

5 hours ago, SteelKing728 said:

Or how the coaches scheme the offense to mitigate the apparent weakness of the OL.

Usually we see teams use short, quick throws and not the long developing runs that we were accustomed to when Adrian Peterson was around.

For Kubiak, the scheme mitigates OL weakness by forcing the defense to move laterally in order to defend outside zone. That creates an opportunity to roll the QB away from the run action and set up for a deep shot with no direct pressure.

Defenses can devote an edge rusher to the boot action, and sell out to cover the passing routes, but that leaves them short handed in run defense -- this is what happened in the Lambeau game, where Cousins had someone in his face every time he rolled out, while Cook and Mattison were racking up explosive plays.

[Heavydan85]

13 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

 

I thought I heard there were 2 snaps of Ezra at LT and Reiff at LG?

[Ozzy]

LT O'Neill
LG Cleveland
C Bradbury
RG Samia
RT Udoh

 

I would love that offensive line because one is getting some action for Udoh.  I am surprised they would not have Udoh at guard but I do believe Cleveland can play guard.  Is a great athlete and surprised they would not put him at OT but clearly I would rather seem him on the field than not on the field.  Why not give it a try and if it does not work with Cleveland or Samia put in Elflein, they already know what he can do and cannot do.  

Reiff would be nice to have this year but I would not be surprised if they just cut him.  Because unless Cleveland can hang at OG, it would cause there to be Cleveland and Udoh both sitting on the bench along with Hill as well.  But that is Hill's role, it would be kind of foolish to put that many decent players on the bench when there are issues on the OL.  Might as well give the young guys a shot.  Personally I would have put Udoh at guard because he is stronger but Cleveland is quicker so maybe that is why they got him in there, Udoh did look good at RT last year at the end of the season.