Yo Denzel Ward

[NudeTayne]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I mean, @LETSGOBROWNIES and Natedawg both liked the Ward pick but didn't like the value when you compare other CB's taken in the top 5 as of late.

 

Neither of them has demonstrated seething irrational hatred of Baker/Dorsey in the last 24 hours either, though.

[ReggieCamp]

1 minute ago, NudeTayne said:

Neither of LGB or NateDawg has demonstrated seething irrational hatred of Baker/Dorsey in the last 24 hours either, though.

Give it time.

[BleedTheClock]

Just now, MWil23 said:

I mean, @LETSGOBROWNIES and Natedawg both liked the Ward pick but didn't like the value when you compare other CB's taken in the top 5 as of late.

There have been 2 other CB's taken in the top 5 as of late.

1. Jalen Ramsey

2. Patrick Peterson

 

While both are significantly bigger than Ward and probably better overall prospects, neither had the quickness and long speed that Denzel does. And neither had nearly as good of technique coming out of college in man or zone coverage. Those two dudes were more of roamers that played off the ball. They developed great man traits in the NFL, but neither were proficient/experienced in press man at the collegiate level. Denzel Ward is coming into the NFL with very little to work on. He has elite athleticism and elite technique. Plus he's aggressive as hell and will smack you. I'd argue the other two players, while more physically gifted with size, had a lot more work to do than Ward does. I thought Ramsey would be bleh at corner because of his lack of man technique and eventually become a superstar safety, but 

I'm not even an OSU homer, but Denzel Ward was more than worthy of a top 5 selection in my opinion. How can you be upset with Ward at #5 but then pound the table for overrated Chubb? The Broncos and the Colts were probably going to take Ward/Chubb in the next two picks in some order if we didn't take him at 4.

 

Plus, it's not like we took a guard. Lockdown corners are worth top 5 selections all day, every day. And CB's like Ward are insanely rare. You don't find guys that play a primarily press man coverage in college and when you do, they aren't as physically freaky as Denzel Ward is.

 

Chubb is going to be a very good run defender and a below average pass rusher. I gave him an NFL comparison of William Hayes. Good player? Sure. Worth a top 5 pick? No. Chubb's grow on trees; Ward's do not.

[NudeTayne]

1 minute ago, ReggieCamp said:

Give it time.

Strongly disagree but did make me smirk.

[ditchdigger]

2 minutes ago, mtmmike said:

how about eric fisher 1 st overall

2 how about pat mahomes i believe he was the lowest ranked rookie qb next to kizer

3I would take myles garrette over both scott and fuller we fired the guy that drafted him

1. Eric Fisher has started 74 of 80 games over his career.  He, Lane Johnson, and Ezekiel Ansah are the only members of the top 10 in 2013 still with their original team.  Fisher is a LT, Johnson is a RT.  The only argument you could make is that he should have drafted Ansah 1st overall, and that was crazy at the time.  Drafting a 10 year starting LT that high is never sexy, but it happens and it makes sense if it works out.  Fisher worked out.

2. 

I can see some plays that would result in negative grades. However, the good outweighs the bad by far, and he led a group of backups to a victory over the Broncos starters.  Chiefs must feel he's ready, since they traded away their starter.

3.  So would anybody.  That's why Fuller went 14, Peters went 18, and Garrett was #1 on every NFL board.

 

[NudeTayne]

1 minute ago, ditchdigger said:

1. Eric Fisher has started 74 of 80 games over his career.  He, Lane Johnson, and Ezekiel Ansah are the only members of the top 10 in 2013 still with their original team.  Fisher is a LT, Johnson is a RT.  The only argument you could make is that he should have drafted Ansah 1st overall, and that was crazy at the time.  Drafting a 10 year starting LT that high is never sexy, but it happens and it makes sense if it works out.  Fisher worked out.

2. 

I can see some plays that would result in negative grades. However, the good outweighs the bad by far, and he led a group of backups to a victory over the Broncos starters.  Chiefs must feel he's ready, since they traded away their starter.

3.  So would anybody.  That's why Fuller went 14, Peters went 18, and Garrett was #1 on every NFL board.

 

There's a quote somewhere about pearls and swine...hmm...cannot recall.

#funtayne

[MWil23]

14 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

There have been 2 other CB's taken in the top 5 as of late.

1. Jalen Ramsey

2. Patrick Peterson

 

While both are significantly bigger than Ward and probably better overall prospects, neither had the quickness and long speed that Denzel does. And neither had nearly as good of technique coming out of college in man or zone coverage. Those two dudes were more of roamers that played off the ball. They developed great man traits in the NFL, but neither were proficient/experienced in press man at the collegiate level. Denzel Ward is coming into the NFL with very little to work on. He has elite athleticism and elite technique. Plus he's aggressive as hell and will smack you. I'd argue the other two players, while more physically gifted with size, had a lot more work to do than Ward does. I thought Ramsey would be bleh at corner because of his lack of man technique and eventually become a superstar safety, but 

I'm not even an OSU homer, but Denzel Ward was more than worthy of a top 5 selection in my opinion. How can you be upset with Ward at #5 but then pound the table for overrated Chubb? The Broncos and the Colts were probably going to take Ward/Chubb in the next two picks in some order if we didn't take him at 4.

 

Plus, it's not like we took a guard. Lockdown corners are worth top 5 selections all day, every day. And CB's like Ward are insanely rare. You don't find guys that play a primarily press man coverage in college and when you do, they aren't as physically freaky as Denzel Ward is.

 

Chubb is going to be a very good run defender and a below average pass rusher. I gave him an NFL comparison of William Hayes. Good player? Sure. Worth a top 5 pick? No. Chubb's grow on trees; Ward's do not.

Buddy I hate to break it to you, but I actually LOVED the Ward pick and mocked him to us in our "7 predictions". I said that if we traded back or if we stayed at four we'd get him.

[MWil23]

18 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

Neither of them has demonstrated seething irrational hatred of Baker/Dorsey in the last 24 hours either, though.

@NateDawg definitely has. 

Throw in my seething hatred of Baker and my LOVE for the Ward pick and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, save for me an erroneous blanket statement generalization.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

21 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

There have been 2 other CB's taken in the top 5 as of late.

1. Jalen Ramsey

2. Patrick Peterson

 

While both are significantly bigger than Ward and probably better overall prospects, neither had the quickness and long speed that Denzel does. And neither had nearly as good of technique coming out of college in man or zone coverage. Those two dudes were more of roamers that played off the ball. They developed great man traits in the NFL, but neither were proficient/experienced in press man at the collegiate level. Denzel Ward is coming into the NFL with very little to work on. He has elite athleticism and elite technique. Plus he's aggressive as hell and will smack you. I'd argue the other two players, while more physically gifted with size, had a lot more work to do than Ward does. I thought Ramsey would be bleh at corner because of his lack of man technique and eventually become a superstar safety, but 

I'm not even an OSU homer, but Denzel Ward was more than worthy of a top 5 selection in my opinion. How can you be upset with Ward at #5 but then pound the table for overrated Chubb? The Broncos and the Colts were probably going to take Ward/Chubb in the next two picks in some order if we didn't take him at 4.

 

Plus, it's not like we took a guard. Lockdown corners are worth top 5 selections all day, every day. And CB's like Ward are insanely rare. You don't find guys that play a primarily press man coverage in college and when you do, they aren't as physically freaky as Denzel Ward is.

 

Chubb is going to be a very good run defender and a below average pass rusher. I gave him an NFL comparison of William Hayes. Good player? Sure. Worth a top 5 pick? No. Chubb's grow on trees; Ward's do not.

I don’t hate the pick, never said I did. I’m over the top compared to most folks in my desire to trade down, I get that, but I still think that would have been the right move.

We had plenty of assets this year to have a stellar draft whether our second pick was at 4 or 12 or somewhere in between. I’d have loved to add a premium asset to the 2019 war chest.

I think Ward will be good, no doubt about it.  He should be a good starting CB, and CB is a premium position, so I like that too. I do think there will be other quality starting CB’s in this draft too though.

As far as Peterson, I’ve never heard anyone question his speed.  IIrc his 40 time was 0.02 off Ward’s and he ran it 35 lbs heavier. I’m a Buckeye homer for sure and would love to talk up a a Buckeye I thought was elite, but I just never saw him on that level.

I’m not a size queen either usually, but I do have concerns about spending a top 4 pick on a 183lb corner.  At that ratified air I want someone on the other side of 6’ and 200lbs. Not saying you have to be that size to be good, but it is a position where I think size matters a bit, other positions not so much. Again, concerns, not saying I think he’s bad or hate the pick.

I get why people are excited, I’m excited too, I’m sick of seeing our terrible pass defense. But just because someone has a concern or isn’t blowing Dorsey for drafting s good prospect with the 4th overall pick doesn’t mean folks are complaining.  It’s a discussion board, if I just wanted to read fluff “we’re better today than yesterday” BS I’d read the PD.

[NudeTayne]

22 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

@NateDawg definitely has. 

Throw in my seething hatred of Baker and my LOVE for the Ward pick and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, save for me an erroneous blanket statement generalization.

Of course it was meant as a blanket statement. Feel free to be an outlier. I welcome it. There's no reason to be purposely dense in order to make your point, though; most on the forum seem to hate the Ward pick. 

And I must have missed Nate saying that. I was not aware. My bad.

Edit: the few Baker supporters on here all seem to be okay, even excited with what we did at Pick 4 as well, even if some preferred Chubb. That's where I point the histrionics to the Darnold supporters. 

I would love to have traded down, but I also believe that if Ward was there guy, he wasn't making it past pick 9 at the very latest. 

I think most of us, to be honest, had to talk ourselves into Chubb at 4 and never really in our hearts wanted him. He looks pretty good and all but not special. I'll be very surprised if he goes on the Bosa trajectory. If that's the case, assuming Ward doesn't become elite, then that would sting a bit. But yeah, I had the two players ranked pretty similarly overall.

[BleedTheClock]

11 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

As far as Peterson, I’ve never heard anyone question his speed.  IIrc his 40 time was 0.02 off Ward’s and he ran it 35 lbs heavier. I’m a Buckeye homer for sure and would love to talk up a a Buckeye I thought was elite, but I just never saw him on that level.

No you're right that Peterson was a freak, but he didn't have the side to side lateral speed that Ward does. Whether or not that was tied to technique or not is up for debate, but Peterson was a linear corner. He struggled with quicker route runners, as he gave up inside leverage too easily. Ward doesn't have those problems. I just think Ward's technique is damn near flawless with how he opens his hips and maintains leverage over the top, but keeps his weight forward enough to come off of his backpedal and carry WR's across the field. He's got special quicks and no fundamental flaws right now. Just as polished as they get at the position.

[BleedTheClock]

33 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Buddy I hate to break it to you, but I actually LOVED the Ward pick and mocked him to us in our "7 predictions". I said that if we traded back or if we stayed at four we'd get him.

I'm not your buddy, guy.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

No you're right that Peterson was a freak, but he didn't have the side to side lateral speed that Ward does. Whether or not that was tied to technique or not is up for debate, but Peterson was a linear corner. He struggled with quicker route runners, as he gave up inside leverage too easily. Ward doesn't have those problems. I just think Ward's technique is damn near flawless with how he opens his hips and maintains leverage over the top, but keeps his weight forward enough to come off of his backpedal and carry WR's across the field. He's got special quicks and no fundamental flaws right now. Just as polished as they get at the position.

They’re definitely different prospects.

I think Ward will be able to step in day one and be able lock up most guys, especially the smaller/quicker guys,  they aren’t going to shake him.

My concern is when bigger guys don’t worry about outrunning him and just box him out and body him.  Not saying he’ll fail, but he’s going to be giving up a lot of height and size.

[NateDawg]

Leave the internet world for an hour and my name is in everyone’s mouth. 

Summary from me:

I would have taken Darnold. I had Mayfield as the 3rd best QB behind him and Rosen. The character concerns could turn out to be nothing in the NFL, or he could end up being unhinged. TBD but hoping for the best obviously. 

Love Denzel Ward. Just don’t see him as the 2nd best position player in the draft. Felt like it was in part a need pick but would have really loved him 8-12 range if we made a move back. Obviously that’s who Dorsey wanted and felt like it wasn’t worth the risk and someone else would have taken him.

People act like having an opinion that differs from what we did means a guy hates a pick and thinks he will fail. It’s okay not to have the same board. Darnold/Chubb would have been my picks at 1/4. Does not mean if Ward/Mayfield are good, everyone that would have made those picks has to eat crow at a later date.

[BleedTheClock]

2 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

My concern is when bigger guys don’t worry about outrunning him and just box him out and body him.  Not saying he’ll fail, but he’s going to be giving up a lot of height and size.

I get that, but he did very well against Simmie Cobbs, who was raping OSU until Ward was on him.

 

And think about how many teams just throw deep shot moon balls to WR's all game long. That doesn't really exist. It's a fear that we all have, but we always get beat by route running or by having to play 10 yards off our man b/c of speed deficiencies. That's what kills us, not size. Briean Boddy-Calhoun is 2 inches shorter than Denzel Ward and didn't get mossed by anyone this year. I know having a lengthy corner allows you to get more hands on footballs and whatnot, but I don't see NFL teams looking at Ward and going, "ok, let's put our bigger WR on him and throw it up" as a game plan.  I hope they do though, because they're throwing away downs.

What Ward is going to do for this team is make everything difficult for QB's and WR's. There is no easy yardage available with Ward on you because he squeezes into your frame and doesn't leave it. Gone are the days of opposing WR's having enough cushion to do jumping jacks before catching the ball underneath and getting 4-5 yards. Ward can play 2-3 yards off the WR in Cover 3, which is insanely hard to do. You are eliminating space with this pick. Any WR he is on is going to have to rely on pinpoint accuracy from the QB if they want a completion.