OROY

[Thomas5737]

46 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

Barkley is arguably the best back in football already. Easy decision.

3 of the 5 leading yards per carry were rookies (not Barkley) and 5 of the top 10 (including Barkley) were rookies. Lindsay was 9th in rushing yards, 7th in rushing TD and 3rd in ypc in the whole league. So statistically a top 5 type back as a rookie. Chubb started like 10 games had 996 yards and 8 TD which over a full season of starting would statistically make him a top 5 back. Kamara and Hunt were arguably the best running back as a rookie last year. Zeke and Howard were in 2016. Gurley in 2015.

Barkley had a great year but lets not act like this doesn't happen a lot. Barkley may very well win but he wasn't any better than Kamara was last year or Zeke the year before. Running backs come in as top players all of the time. Doesn't take away what they do but it puts it in perspective.

If it's blind stats against the rest of the league at their position then It's Barkley, Lindsay, Chubb, Ridley, Sony Michel....Baker. Also if it's just stats Nelson and McGlinchey don't get a vote. So it can't be just stats even though it will play its part.

[BullsandBroncos]

Most of us expected Barkley to be absolutely amazing from the start, so I'm not surprised and he did what most of us thought he was going to do.

 

So I vote Phillip Lindsay because he's undrafted, undersized, and is the Denver Offense, and is a great player.

[BleedTheClock]

2 hours ago, BullsandBroncos said:

Most of us expected Barkley to be absolutely amazing from the start, so I'm not surprised and he did what most of us thought he was going to do.

 

So I vote Phillip Lindsay because he's undrafted, undersized, and is the Denver Offense, and is a great player.

Either this is a joke or you are?

[BullsandBroncos]

12 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Either this is a joke or you are?

A joke. Very small argument can be made for Mayfield, just because he's a QB. Barkley should run away and receive this award.

[BleedTheClock]

1 minute ago, BullsandBroncos said:

A joke. Very small argument can be made for Mayfield, just because he's a QB. Barkley should run away and receive this award.

Whew! Ok good!

I have no problem with either winning the award, but I'd bet money that Baker wins it. He's a QB, which isn't necessarily fair, but he did have by far the biggest impact out of any of the rookies by a mile. I understand giving it to someone that had incredible statistics, but if the award is meant to be the rookie MVP, it goes to Baker easily. If it's meant to be supported by stats, it's Barkley. If it's scored based on snap-by-snap consistency, it's Nelson.

[Thomas5737]

23 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

if the award is meant to be the rookie MVP, it goes to Baker easily. If it's meant to be supported by stats, it's Barkley. If it's scored based on snap-by-snap consistency, it's Nelson.

It is what each of the 50 voters want it to be so that is why it will be a close vote imo. If they were told to base it on stats it would be a blowout. On impact, it would be a blowout. By who they voted to be an all-pro, a blowout.

My guess will be something like 21 for Baker, 19 for Barkley and 10 for Nelson.

[Onizuka]

6 hours ago, SkippyX said:

I don't think Dak is a great QB. I hate the Cowboys.

• As an Eagles fan I would LOVE for Dallas to pay him 27 million a year.

 

He kicked butt as a rookie though and denying it is just delusion.

• Things like reading defenses or guy has to be open or they all play the run or he only throws short passes is all loser analysis.
  • The idea of football is to move the ball, score points, and win.
    • Dak was AWESOME at that in his rookie year.
• Even the playoff loss came down to an actual miracle throw and catch from Rodgers to Cook.
  • Dak had 300 yards, a 100+ rating 3 TDs and a pick in a playoff game.

 

I don't understand some of your posts, it's like you believe everything you say is just fact even when you don't watch the games you are trying to argue against. Again, context. No where did I say Dak had a terrible rookie season; but you did however state that Dak was the better passer and I disagree. Dak did his job amazingly as a rookie, moving the chains and putting up points; but again, I wasn't overly impressed with Dak as an overall passer since Zeke was more important to that offense then Dak.

Mayfield played a lot more aggressive then Dak and had to deal with the incompetence of Hue/Haley for his first 5 starts; the same 2 coaches who didn't give Mayfield any 1st team reps until week 4 and needed the GM to trade Hyde just so those two would play Chubb . Mayfield made the throws you want your franchise QB making, those nice tight throws whether it was short, intermediate, or long. Mayfield's biggest problem as a rookie was that he was often too aggressive looking for the big plays most of the time, instead of just going for the easy throws the defense gives him.

 

[SkippyX]

4 hours ago, Onizuka said:

I don't understand some of your posts, it's like you believe everything you say is just fact even when you don't watch the games you are trying to argue against. Again, context. No where did I say Dak had a terrible rookie season; but you did however state that Dak was the better passer and I disagree. Dak did his job amazingly as a rookie, moving the chains and putting up points; but again, I wasn't overly impressed with Dak as an overall passer since Zeke was more important to that offense then Dak.

Mayfield played a lot more aggressive then Dak and had to deal with the incompetence of Hue/Haley for his first 5 starts; the same 2 coaches who didn't give Mayfield any 1st team reps until week 4 and needed the GM to trade Hyde just so those two would play Chubb . Mayfield made the throws you want your franchise QB making, those nice tight throws whether it was short, intermediate, or long. Mayfield's biggest problem as a rookie was that he was often too aggressive looking for the big plays most of the time, instead of just going for the easy throws the defense gives him.

 

If that biggest problem caused his stats to be mediocre then shouldn't we treat him as a mediocre production rookie QB with huge upside and wait for the brilliance in year 2?

• Should we lie to ourselves about his rookie greatness because we will draft him high next year in a Fantasy League on talent and potential?
• I already complimented him on the low sack rate
• I will also say I am impressed by the 266 yards passing per game as a rookie.

In the same way should we complain that 2016 Dak had:

• 13 wins with those 5 game winning drives
• 67.7% completions
• 8.0 yards per pass
• 23 TDs
• 4 picks in a full season

But you maybe don't feel like he made all the throws in tight windows like a franchise QB should?

• What is a re-watch going to show me to make 67.7% 8.0 per pass and a 5.75 to 1 TD/INT ratio look bad?
  • Are 2016 Eagles, Redskins, and Giants going to crash into each other so Cowboys are running free on 20 passes a game?
    • I don't remember it that way

Because we think Dak does not have Mayfield level upside do we distort our view of reality and pretend 2016 was just gifted to him?

• Brees was 8-8 and mediocre as a first year starter with LaDanian Tomlinson dominating.
  • I thought all a first time starter needed was a great running back as an easy button?

[SkippyX]

4 hours ago, Onizuka said:

I don't understand some of your posts, it's like you believe everything you say is just fact even when you don't watch the games you are trying to argue against. Again, context. No where did I say Dak had a terrible rookie season; but you did however state that Dak was the better passer and I disagree. Dak did his job amazingly as a rookie, moving the chains and putting up points; but again, I wasn't overly impressed with Dak as an overall passer since Zeke was more important to that offense then Dak.

Mayfield played a lot more aggressive then Dak and had to deal with the incompetence of Hue/Haley for his first 5 starts; the same 2 coaches who didn't give Mayfield any 1st team reps until week 4 and needed the GM to trade Hyde just so those two would play Chubb . Mayfield made the throws you want your franchise QB making, those nice tight throws whether it was short, intermediate, or long. Mayfield's biggest problem as a rookie was that he was often too aggressive looking for the big plays most of the time, instead of just going for the easy throws the defense gives him.

 

I have already shown you that in Baker's 13 starts  Chubb's/Johnson's production was about 1 TD and 64 yards less over 13 games compared to Zeke 2016.

• Cleveland's backs had slightly better yards per carry and yards per touch.

You are talking about your feelings of not being overly impressed while I clearly demonstrate that they had almost identical RB support.

• Zeke was a great rookie.
• Chubb was a great rookie after he got playing time and Johnson was a stud 3rd down back.

Zeke and Dak got 49 of the 50 OROY votes in 2016... Dak got 28 of those 49.

• You have every right to say you would have voted for Zeke and there is nothing wrong with that
  • Pretending that Dak was a Taylor Hall level pathetic award winner is ignorant

Do 2 rookies on the same team have to steal each other's mojo?

Can Duke have 3 awesome freshman or do we have to pretend 2 of them are bad?

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

wait for the brilliance in year 2?

Mayfield was brilliant in year one. That's why there is a discussion. Baker and Brady were pretty much the same statistically this year per game. Both were behind Cousins and Fitzpatrick in rating but that doesn't mean they didn't play better than them.

Baker honestly can't play much better than he did this year, at least realistically. He completed passes that at best were ill advised but still otherworldly. He also is elite in the mic'd up category.

Also, look at him drum.

Wow, that's big! I mean what he revealed on the sideline in the Bengals game not the size of that video.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

Baker honestly can't play much better than he did this year, at least realistically.

That would be disappointing. After all the potential he showed this year, he would only end up being a fairly average QB. Yeah, I would hope for and expect more.

[Mega Ron]

2 hours ago, jrry32 said:

That would be disappointing. After all the potential he showed this year, he would only end up being a fairly average QB. Yeah, I would hope for and expect more.

Bake played brilliantly, as did a number of others, once Hue was canned.

Saying that, he didn't really play badly in the games that he started (and in the win against the Jets where Tyrod started) but the play calling was atrocious.

If the play calling was decent, if Chubb and Duke were played in the first 6 games, and/or if the Browns had a half competent kicker and special teams, the Browns would have made the post season and Baker would have been nailed on for the rookie awards.

As it is he was pretty damn good. Anyone who watched the games would be in no doubt about that.

However, I'm happy if anyone wants to underestimate what he is.

 

[iknowcool]

17 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Barkley had a great year but lets not act like this doesn't happen a lot. Barkley may very well win but he wasn't any better than Kamara was last year or Zeke the year before. Running backs come in as top players all of the time.

Well.. yeah, if you compare him to two of the best rookie RBs of the last 15 years (who produced on much better teams), then sure it seems like a Barkley kind of back happens "all the time".

I mean I don't even care about the statistics at this point.  I can't fathom how anyone could have watched Saquon Barkley play and first come to the conclusion that a player of his caliber comes out all the time.  

I don't even see why the whole, "well, it's easier to transition to the NFL as a RB easier than as a QB" matters.  Seems like a long way around saying "Saquon Barkley was better than Baker Mayfield as a rookie", which is all that should matter.  This isn't league MVP.  And answering that with (not saying you have done this) "well, why not give it to Quenton Nelson" is such a cop-out response.

If I'm being actually honest, ignoring statistics, Mayfield was no more impressive to me than Matt Ryan as a rookie.  Which is still great.  But I'm just not seeing the whole, "Baker was just on another level as a rookie QB" narrative.  Because he really wasn't.

[iknowcool]

1 hour ago, Mega Ron said:

Bake played brilliantly, as did a number of others, once Hue was canned.

Saying that, he didn't really play badly in the games that he started (and in the win against the Jets where Tyrod started) but the play calling was atrocious.

If the play calling was decent, if Chubb and Duke were played in the first 6 games, and/or if the Browns had a half competent kicker and special teams, the Browns would have made the post season and Baker would have been nailed on for the rookie awards.

As it is he was pretty damn good. Anyone who watched the games would be in no doubt about that.

However, I'm happy if anyone wants to underestimate what he is.

How is anybody underestimating Baker Mayfield by suggesting that at 22 years old (or however old he is), he hasn't played at his absolute best?  

Are you telling me that your #1 overall pick who took over in Week 3 in a game ya'll won, played his absolute best and still couldn't get you to the playoffs because maybe the play-calling wasn't good, and you guys are satisfied with that?  

[DawgX]

4 hours ago, jrry32 said:

That would be disappointing. After all the potential he showed this year, he would only end up being a fairly average QB. Yeah, I would hope for and expect more.

Yeah I don't really get where Thomas is coming from there. Baker played great for a rookie, but he still can easily improve his game. I'd say for a rookie, his decision making was good but he still had his share of rookie mistakes.There were numerous occasions where he would be too aggressive instead of just taking the easier and shorter pass. He'd also sometimes look to pass when he could have easily ran for 10-15 yards to secure a first down. He's obviously no Lamar Jackson running with the ball, but he's not a statue either. I love that he has an aggressive mentality, but sometimes you just have to take what the defense is giving you. Hopefully that's something he will learn as he gains more experience.