OROY

[diamondbull424]

4 minutes ago, Bonanza23 said:

Hey man welcome to the forum!  FF General needs more posters like you 🙂

You know, this is the second time I’ve seen this exact post. Is Baker Mayfield the only person in Cleveland with creativity?

But hey, like I told the last guy. One stint as a mod down and 11 years in, I’m glad to receive your welcome. I hope to one day work myself up to your level. I appreciate it.

[Bonanza23]

18 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

You know, this is the second time I’ve seen this exact post. Is Baker Mayfield the only person in Cleveland with creativity?

But hey, like I told the last guy. One stint as a mod down and 11 years in, I’m glad to receive your welcome. I hope to one day work myself up to your level. I appreciate it.

It’s ok my man keep up the good work. Every day there is some way we can improve. 

[Thomas5737]

22 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

You know, this is the second time I’ve seen this exact post. Is Baker Mayfield the only person in Cleveland with creativity?

But hey, like I told the last guy. One stint as a mod down and 11 years in, I’m glad to receive your welcome. I hope to one day work myself up to your level. I appreciate it.

I get where you are coming from, I was a hall monitor once, we should stick together.

Your fan base seems to be rallying against Baker, whether in Gen, your forum, the Browns forum or where ever. I don't care really, we've been the laughing stock for years and didn't have much of a defense against it because we lacked a franchise QB so any of our success, and there wasn't much, was short lived. If you want to say you are rooting against Baker/Browns more than ever because Browns fans are debating why he deserves consideration for OROY then I worry because you have a lot more heading your way in the future. If you hate us this much as losers I hate to see what us winning is going to do to you. A lot of us won't be graceful with the crap we have taken, it's unfortunate but it is probably inevitable.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

I get where you are coming from, I was a hall monitor once, we should stick together.

Your fan base seems to be rallying against Baker, whether in Gen, your forum, the Browns forum or where ever. I don't care really, we've been the laughing stock for years and didn't have much of a defense against it because we lacked a franchise QB so any of our success, and there wasn't much, was short lived. If you want to say you are rooting against Baker/Browns more than ever because Browns fans are debating why he deserves consideration for OROY then I worry because you have a lot more heading your way in the future. If you hate us this much as losers I hate to see what us winning is going to do to you. A lot of us won't be graceful with the crap we have taken, it's unfortunate but it is probably inevitable.

You beautiful bastard...

[wackywabbit]

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

Seems like half of those arguing that Baker shouldn't be considered are Raven fans. It will be a close vote, I don't see any homerisms going on between Browns and Giant fans really, just debating what will be an extremely close vote. Then you get third party fans, like you, who have an agenda trying to will Baker into not being good and not the best young QB in the division which is hilarious, sad and silly all at the same time. Baker's first pick against the Ravens was because Smith grabbed Callaway by the shoulder pads and pulled him backwards and getting position on him with the ball in the air, easy PI. The second one was a good defensive play where the defender got there at the same time as the ball and Smith "caught" the rebound, not that it should have been a catch the ball was moving as he trapped it against the ground. The third play was a good play by Mosley after he got stuffed at the line, Baker got rid of it quickly and it would have been an easy 1st down had Mosely not got stuffed, but unfortunately he did and he made a good play on the ball and sealed the game on the 4th down play. So act like Baker gave away the game if it makes you feel better, wins against the Browns are going to be hard to come by so enjoy it while you can.

I suppose I'm the other Raven fan you are referring to. I also never said anything about Baker not being considered. I've consistently in this thread maintained that:

- Baker had the best rookie QB season this year

- Barkley had a much better season for a player at his position

- Baker because of his position was the most impactful rookie

- Baker's rookie QB season wasn't close to the top rookie QB seasons of this decade. I singled out Newton, Wilson and RG3 as what I considered the best. This statement got a whole page of reachtion gifs and 'lol' posts from Browns fans, without a good case for why it isn't true.

- Baker was average when compared to ALL 2018 starting QBs. This also got a lot of panties in a bunch, despite the only thing Baker being top 10 in was sack rate. And I guess PFF ratings, maybe?

- Barkley's season was comparable to the best rookie RB seasons (like Kamara and Elliot)

- Barkley was among the top players (of any experience) at his position this year

- If the voters want to give the award to the best rookie, it;ll go to Barkley, if they want to give the award to the most valuable, they'll give it to Baker

 

What exactly of the above do you have a problem with? Or where does that show my agenda? Honestly I think the debates on the two bold points were in fact homerism on the part of the Browns; fans. Homerism that you claim you didn't see any of. I don't see how most neutral fans would disagree with either of those, TBH. 

[diamondbull424]

On 12/31/2018 at 9:16 AM, diamondbull424 said:

In terms of the OP, now that the season has ended I can answer this question.

I’d go with Saquon Barkley. He put up over 2000 all purpose yards and 15 TDs as a rookie. Heck remove the rookie portion out of the equation and it’s still HIGHLY impressive. He put up better stats than Zeke and Gurley this season, proving to be the best RB in the game. This season he has also eclipsed the best season Zeke has ever had and is just below Gurley’s best showing last season. This all with defenses keying on him because the Giants only have a few threats to contain.

Barkley has already made a pro bowl and will likely also make 1st team All-Pro.

I understand that what Baker has done in Cleveland has given them a lot of hope, but it’s not all Baker. They have a great OL (their tackles are only average to above average, but they’ve got a top notch interior OL) and a top 10 pass defense. He also has a pro bowl talent WR in his prime with a 1st round TE. Plus he has a top 5-10 RB in Nick Chubb. 

Baker has done a great job. But to give him the OROY over a guy who just proved to be the best player at his position, as a rookie, would to me be asinine. He broke Peyton Manning and Russell Wilson’s rookie record, sure. But that’s the only argument I can give him.

Turning Cleveland from a 0-16 team to a 7-8-1 team isn’t something I can “credit” Baker for as Hue was a historically bad head coach. Had Hue just been a “normally bad HC” the Browns likely go from a 3-4 win season last year to a 7-8-1 win season. And then stacking THAT resume alongside what Barkley has accomplished makes literally no sense.

That would be like me saying Quenton Nelson deserves ROTY because of how him coming to the team has turned the Colts around. Going from a bottom 5 team last season to a playoff team. Or like me saying Lamar Jackson should be ROTY for taking a Baltimore team that hasn’t made the playoffs in 4 years from a 4-5 start to finish 6-1 down the stretch and make it into the playoffs by leading a historically dominant rushing attack. I would be giving each player too much credit for a team turnaround and using that credit to justify them leapfrogging a player who has put forth a superior campaign. 

So for me, while I do register Baker’s impact into the equation, I still would put him behind Barkley. I won’t say the decision “isn’t close” but for me it’s definitely decidedly so.

This was my second post in this thread where I made my determination and provided my reasoning. At the end of the day, my opinion hasn’t changed.

 

1 hour ago, Thomas5737 said:

I get where you are coming from, I was a hall monitor once, we should stick together.

Your fan base seems to be rallying against Baker, whether in Gen, your forum, the Browns forum or where ever. I don't care really, we've been the laughing stock for years and didn't have much of a defense against it because we lacked a franchise QB so any of our success, and there wasn't much, was short lived. If you want to say you are rooting against Baker/Browns more than ever because Browns fans are debating why he deserves consideration for OROY then I worry because you have a lot more heading your way in the future. If you hate us this much as losers I hate to see what us winning is going to do to you. A lot of us won't be graceful with the crap we have taken, it's unfortunate but it is probably inevitable.

Glad you were able to reach such a high level of achievement.

You’re right. We’re rallying against Baker. We truly feel he’s the best rookie QB this year, so just like we found a way to steal away your team we will steal away Baker and Nick Chubb. We also will convince Jim Brown to change his HOF listed team to the Ravens. The hate grows deep within me.

[Thomas5737]

35 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

I suppose I'm the other Raven fan you are referring to. I also never said anything about Baker not being considered. I've consistently in this thread maintained that:

- Baker had the best rookie QB season this year

- Barkley had a much better season for a player at his position

- Baker because of his position was the most impactful rookie

- Baker's rookie QB season wasn't close to the top rookie QB seasons of this decade. I singled out Newton, Wilson and RG3 as what I considered the best. This statement got a whole page of reachtion gifs and 'lol' posts from Browns fans, without a good case for why it isn't true.

- Baker was average when compared to ALL 2018 starting QBs. This also got a lot of panties in a bunch, despite the only thing Baker being top 10 in was sack rate. And I guess PFF ratings, maybe?

- Barkley's season was comparable to the best rookie RB seasons (like Kamara and Elliot)

- Barkley was among the top players (of any experience) at his position this year

- If the voters want to give the award to the best rookie, it;ll go to Barkley, if they want to give the award to the most valuable, they'll give it to Baker

 

What exactly of the above do you have a problem with? Or where does that show my agenda? Honestly I think the debates on the two bold points were in fact homerism on the part of the Browns; fans. Homerism that you claim you didn't see any of. I don't see how most neutral fans would disagree with either of those, TBH. 

I wasn't directing anything at you, I'm not sure who you are but welcome to FF.

Seriously though, as far as the hating, no you aren't one that has stepped to the forefront. That EdLewis guy, though I doubt you guys take him seriously either, has been the leader. It just seems there are multiple Ravens fans in the Mayfield/rookie threads talking about how he throws interceptions to lose games or some other diatribe but are always against him and seemingly always discount any Browns fans that say anything because we are homers. As I've said 100 times, both (there are really only 2 candidates) are deserving. I have no problem with Barkley winning.

Certainly running QBs have put up better rookie numbers rushing/passing over the years. I don't know if any rookie QB has been as impressive as Baker simply passing though. Yeah, RGIII had really good numbers and his ability to run and a good ground game by his RB left a lot of open guys so if you look at stats his year was more impressive and I get that. Same with Cam and Dak. It even benefited Wilson being able to and using his threat to run. If you don't take that into account then that is fine, some voters will and some won't. Of pure passers Baker's season was unique. Dan Marino probably did it as well or better. Luck was decent but less impressive. He was captain comeback and threw a ton but didn't look nearly as impressive as an actual passer as a rookie. So I agree that the dual threat QBs produced better numbers as rookies and if this is all about numbers then Mayfield overall probably isn't top 5 all time rookie QB. As a pure passer I'm going #1 or #2. If you want to include intangibles that he brought to the team, which might be more for an MVP debate, it skyrockets his season's accomplishments.

Baker's numbers were average. Baker wasn't average. Baker was a freak. I'm glad Hue is gone, more so because of his mouth than his coaching, even though he was bad, but Mayfield looked great with Hue. His receivers dropped a lot more early on though which hurt his numbers. The drop rate was over 8% for the first handful of games. As that got better Mayfield's completion percentages and overall production got better. With the coaching change and an alteration to to passing patterns his sack rate dropped. Mayfield looked good out there all but a couple games and even in those games made some wow throws. Mayfield only had one game with a rating under 70, as far as I know only Marino and RGIII can say that and RGIII passed at a much lower rate relying on the ground game.

[Thomas5737]

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

Glad you were able to reach such a high level of achievement.

You’re right. We’re rallying against Baker. We truly feel he’s the best rookie QB this year, so just like we found a way to steal away your team we will steal away Baker and Nick Chubb. We also will convince Jim Brown to change his HOF listed team to the Ravens. The hate grows deep within me.

You joke about stealing the team but I don't yet find it funny. I know you and others think it is a trigger but I'm not taking the bait.

[hornbybrown]

I was a huge Baker fan before we picked him and he without a doubt is the OROY but boy do I hope someone else gets.

Baker feeds off the chip on his shoulder 

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

You joke about stealing the team but I don't yet find it funny. I know you and others think it is a trigger but I'm not taking the bait.

😔😒🤦‍♂️ 

It’s not just a joke, it’s blatant sarcasm (at least in my mind). Not because said sarcasm is a joke, but because the constant assumptions of intent are getting quite annoying. 

I’ve stated my case from the beginning that Baker is a worthy candidate, but that I’ve felt Barkley should win it. But instead of that I was instantly debated about Lamar Jackson.

I’ve stated my case REPEATEDLY that Lamar Jackson isn’t in contention for OROY, that he was simply a comparison point used to disprove one of the arguments as to why I DONT believe wins (and turning a team around) should qualify a candidate to hop over a separate candidate with (IMO) clearly a better performance. Because if impact is the case, Lamar going 6-1 and making the playoffs when the team was 4-5 before him would put him in conversation for OROY; but it shouldn’t count and is why he shouldn’t be in conversation for the award- because he’s just not better than the candidates before him- like Barkley and Baker.

I was then told, “we’ll if you extrapolate Baker’s numbers without Hue over the entire season he has equal stats to Barkley” which I responded to with the fact that adding 3 games of numbers that we don’t have and making assumptions on how it would go doesn’t make sense.

Exhibit A) I then CLEARLY use Lamar Jackson as an example as to WHY it doesn’t make sense. But it seems some of you guys are so triggered that you’re able to see the idiotic logic behind why extrapolating Lamar’s numbers don’t make sense (stronger defenses, teams have more tape, injury potential, bad game potential, etc.), yet somehow believe that it makes sense in Baker’s case (“because Hue Jackson/Tom Haley held them down”)

It really isn’t that complicated. I mentioned Lamar Jackson (and Quenton Nelson for that matter, but no one seems to remember him) as a means as to TRY and get you guys to see why such arguments don’t make sense (using a player you’re not a fan of to try and lower your fan bias, which we all have here, so I understand to a degree) and as opposed to seeing the logic, I somehow got borerline click bait responses.

Which is then when I switch on the sarcasm because clearly if a reasonable debate isn’t going to work and my intent is simply going to be assumed anyway, I might as well craft illogical diatribes of sarcasm that fit the “agenda” that is being assumed. I.E.) “We stole your team, so we’re gonna steal Baker/Chubb, because we hate the Browns.”

Which couldn’t be anything further from the truth... I actually have always felt bad for the Browns and WANTED to see your team as competitive (close friend is a Browns fan and I’m a fan of the underdog). Granted, I want you to lose to the Ravens, but I would love to see that city have a quality team and in the playoffs (just like when the Bengals were known as the laughing stock of the league before Marvin, I wanted to see them do well.)

But when I can’t even argue for Saquan Barkley without being accused of being a Browns/Baker hater, and have to state my cases ad nauseam, that does make me want to root for all included parties to fail.

/rant.✌️

[MWil23]

I’ve taken a lot in my almost 15 years on this forum. I’m a lot more likely to get banned for running my mouth and posting Degeneration X groin chop gifs directly at other posters than I am to be gracious or quiet if/when the Browns start winning.

[bigjohnson2009]

I’ve stated that I prefer Barkley in this debate simply because results matter and Baker suffered from an incompetent coach not using him and later using him poorly. I’m really bothered that some posters don’t realize a RB being one of the better RBs in the league their rookie season is normal. RBs production is directly correlated with their age and they benefit pretty much nothing from experience. A rookie stud should come in and out produce 5-10 year veterans. Discounting Baker for being top 10-15 at the position as a PASSER (running as a QB rarely has much longevity in the NFL) is an amazing accomplishment at a position where experience is so important. It’s apples to oranges comparing a QB to veteran peers vs a RB to veteran peers.

Also the supporting cast debate has zero merit. Baker’s surrounding talent is terrible: his greatest asset was his late season playcaller, Chubb, and his interior oline.. the rest is below league average and in some instances near the worst in the league (tackle play, receivers) Saquon had an average supporting cast overall and a pretty terrible line. There’s a reason the teams picked #1-#2 the year before, neither benefitted from their supporting cast, they both made their supporting cast look better. 

[Thomas5737]

16 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

The more I hear all this fan bias (hate) against a well worthy candidate in Saquan Barkley and anyone who has considered him as the better option (especially when one acknowledges Baker’s greatness and gives all due respect to Mayfield before doing so), the less I WANT Mayfield to win. 

Before I was quite indifferent, but some of these arguments and straw grasping is completely insufferable.

 

[BleedTheClock]

What does the award mean to you guys? It's very vague to call someone the OROY. It doesn't say explicitly what the criteria for winning the award is.

 

1. Is it MOST VALUABLE ROOKIE? (Baker)

2. Is it BEST STATISTICAL ROOKIE? (Saquon)

3. Is it MOST IMPACTFUL ROOKIE? (Baker)

 

 

I have no idea.    Either selection at this point makes sense to me. I would always lean towards the statistical aspect so if I were objective, I'd probably vote Saquon. Since I'm a Browns fan and think the award SHOULD be changed to most VALUABLE rookie, I voted for Baker.

[Thomas5737]

19 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

What does the award mean to you guys? It's very vague to call someone the OROY. It doesn't say explicitly what the criteria for winning the award is.

 

1. Is it MOST VALUABLE ROOKIE? (Baker)

2. Is it BEST STATISTICAL ROOKIE? (Saquon)

3. Is it MOST IMPACTFUL ROOKIE? (Baker)

 

 

I have no idea.    Either selection at this point makes sense to me. I would always lean towards the statistical aspect so if I were objective, I'd probably vote Saquon. Since I'm a Browns fan and think the award SHOULD be changed to most VALUABLE rookie, I voted for Baker.

It is whatever the voters want to base it on. Same voters who do All-Pro so maybe Nelson has a chance.