Browns General Discussion

[candyman93]

3 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Yep. I don’t trust baker at all right now. Run 50X a game. Throw back to the 80s. I want 2 1500 yard rushers. 

Makes me so happy we don’t have Freddie “f it go deep” Kitchens anymore. Homeboy loved to sling that rock.

[sdrawkcab321]

35 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

Makes me so happy we don’t have Freddie “f it go deep” Kitchens anymore. Homeboy loved to sling that rock.

He loved to sling it deep to ratley and the other garbage WRs. Anyone but OBJ or Landry. 

[MWil23]

12 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Yep. I don’t trust baker at all right now.

Since this is the general consensus, I can't say how extremely disappointing that makes him currently as the former #1 OVERALL pick who was the most "Pro Ready" in that group. The dude is like 25 years old and a turnover machine, physically limited, and in his 3rd year in the league can't read a defense and we have to eliminate 1/2 of the field presnap for him to be even remotely successful.

Maybe he eventually figures it out, but with all of the talent and weapons he's surrounded with, he should be putting up video game stats 1/2 of the time.

[DawgX]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Since this is the general consensus, I can't say how extremely disappointing that makes him currently as the former #1 OVERALL pick who was the most "Pro Ready" in that group. The dude is like 25 years old and a turnover machine, physically limited, and in his 3rd year in the league can't read a defense and we have to eliminate 1/2 of the field presnap for him to be even remotely successful.

Maybe he eventually figures it out, but with all of the talent and weapons he's surrounded with, he should be putting up video game stats 1/2 of the time.

Is that the general consensus though?

He absolutely had a disappointing second season. Plenty of that was on him, but plenty of his lack of success was for reasons beyond his control. Totally inept coaching and play-calling, a horrid offensive line and only one truly consistently good WR in Landry. The rare times Kitchens called plays that we all know Baker is best at, he had success. But how many times did we run empty formation or called long developing plays when they didn't work all season? Are we just going to ignore his phenomenal rookie season? Sure, maybe defenses started to figure him out, but he needs to be given more time to figure NFL defenses out himself.

I'm not sure what physical limitations you're talking about. His height is about the only thing that holds him back physically.

This year he has less excuses. He has the weapons, but we'll have to see how the coaching staff does. It also does not help at all that we're implementing a new system in a shortened offseason with no preseason. The first few games could be a bit ugly for the offense until they get more into a rhythm.

I know you've always been a critic of Baker, so I look forward to him proving you wrong. And I'm sure you'll be thrilled if he does, haha. 😉

[AkronsWitness]

10 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

He loved to sling it deep to ratley and the other garbage WRs. Anyone but OBJ or Landry. 

Just looked it up and I dont think it matters who is WR3 either way. Higgins/Ratley/DPJ whatever just toss somebody mildly capable out there.

In 2019 the Vikings WR3 was a guy named Olabisi Johnson who caught a total of 293 yards---which ranked #6 on the team in terms of Targets/Yards. So yeah, WR3 matters some but whoever it is will likely be the 6th or 7th option on the team behind OBJ, Landry, Hooper, Njoku, Chubb and Hunt

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

It’s crazy people look at Baker, who’s headed into year 3 and on his 4th HC, and think “that guy has been a failure”.

Personally I think it’s the organization that’s failed both him and us.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

Is that the general consensus though?

I have yet to see a report that says "Baker Mayfield is lighting it up in training camp". I've seen a lot of reports of him taking the year seriously, showing leadership, taking on more responsibility, etc. from an intangible point of view, but not from a production at practice point of view.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

He absolutely had a disappointing second season. Plenty of that was on him, but plenty of his lack of success was for reasons beyond his control.

Agreed. Freddie was AWFUL and so was the OL/scheme. That said, by his own admission he was FAT, OUT OF SHAPE, didn't come in ready to go, lost his confidence, and expected year two to come easily. He was not at all a professional last year.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

Totally inept coaching and play-calling, a horrid offensive line and only one truly consistently good WR in Landry.

With arguably the best RB in football and he had a 1,000 yard WR in OBJ, who even while not himself, was still good.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

The rare times Kitchens called plays that we all know Baker is best at, he had success.

Did he? I respectfully disagree. He was a turnover machine and 30th+ in the league in efficiency, and beyond horrendous in the Red Zone.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

But how many times did we run empty formation

Agreed 100%. It was beyond infuriating. See almost every post I made last year.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

or called long developing plays when they didn't work all season?

Too many times

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

Are we just going to ignore his phenomenal rookie season? Sure, maybe defenses started to figure him out, but he needs to be given more time to figure NFL defenses out himself.

Ignore it? No, the potential is there, but this is YEAR 3. This is put up/shut up time from a turnover standpoint alone. If he shows promise and limits his turnovers, then I'll be content and excited going into Year 4, but if he's anywhere close to as awful in the Red Zone or turns it over like he did last year, we need to move on in or after 2021.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

I'm not sure what physical limitations you're talking about. His height is about the only thing that holds him back physically.

Height, athleticism, ability to play under center in this league to date, as well as his complete lack of any semblance of an intangible last year. Poor leadership, sulky, disinterested, lacking in confidence. He was a 180 in that regard from Rookie Baker, who had made me a believer.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

This year he has less excuses.

He has none, with the exception of a new scheme and staff. We have the most loaded offensive roster in the entire league when healthy, and that's not at all an exaggeration. What is our biggest hole when healthy? RG? Yeah, no excuses or sympathy from me.

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

He has the weapons, but we'll have to see how the coaching staff does. It also does not help at all that we're implementing a new system in a shortened offseason with no preseason. The first few games could be a bit ugly for the offense until they get more into a rhythm.

The Ravens game could be a tough one, but if they're ugly against Washington and/or Cincinnati, I'll have zero sympathy for them. 

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

I know you've always been a critic of Baker, so I look forward to him proving you wrong. And I'm sure you'll be thrilled if he does, haha. 😉

I was a critic of his predraft and leading up to the entire 2018 season. I made post after post eating my words his rookie season, but 2019 Baker can go away and stay away. He was AWFUL. Every metric and data point proves that to be the case. Freddie and company were likely a HUGE part of that, but Freddie and company didn't make him show up fat and entitled last year either. If he came in locked in/fiery with leadership, and had that type of 2019, I'd absolutely chalk it all up to coaching, but he didn't do his part either.

[DawgX]

- I've heard mixed reports about him in camp. Some days he looks good, some days he looks bad. I don't think it's totally unexpected given that we're implementing a new scheme and that the defense generally gets the best of the offense during TC.

- He definitely was out of shape. That's 100% on him. I think he thought he had the league figured out already so didn't put in all the work that was necessary, and he got a huge wake up call in response.

- And we had a playcaller who did not use his two elite RBs anywhere near enough. How many times would he just abandon the run in the second half even when it wasn't necessary? Hopefully Stefanski or Van Pelt utilizes Chubb and Hunt as much as possible, as that will make things way easier on Baker.

- If you look up Baker's and the offense's stats when we ran play action, utilized bootlegs, two TE sets, etc. we were much more efficient. Problem is, we didn't run those anywhere near enough.

- Baker is certainly no Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen athletically, but I'd say he's above average. He can move well with the ball and can pick up yards when needed.

- Washington could actually have a pretty damn good defense this year,  but yes there's no excuse to lose that game.

Like I said, I'm not at all saying Baker is blameless for his poor season. He holds much of the blame, it's just that many external factors were also working against him. Sounds like we both agree with that, though.

[MWil23]

31 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

It’s crazy people look at Baker, who’s headed into year 3 and on his 4th HC, and think “that guy has been a failure”.

Personally I think it’s the organization that’s failed both him and us.

Without question they have. Again, if he came in last year focused and in football shape, I'd absolutely agree (See: Marcus Mariota, Alex Smith in San Fran, etc.), but by his own admission, he didn't do his part as a professional. 

I put 80% of the blame on this absolute joke of an organization and 20% on a 2nd year rookie.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

Without question they have. Again, if he came in last year focused and in football shape, I'd absolutely agree (See: Marcus Mariota, Alex Smith in San Fran, etc.), but by his own admission, he didn't do his part as a professional. 

I put 80% of the blame on this absolute joke of an organization and 20% on a 2nd year rookie.

I mean, he’s a QB not a cornerback.  It wasn’t his physical conditioning that held him back.  He wasn’t turning the ball over because he didn’t do enough cardio in May.

His issues are the same issue pretty much everyone else in the organization has had for 20 years, lack of continuity and poor organizational stability.  Obviously the coaching has been atrocious as well.

Does he need to learn to read defenses better?  Sure.  Could he have been 10 pounds lighter?  Sure.  But someone doesn’t learn to read defenses overnight and again, his weight wasn’t the root of the issue.

The issues are obvious by now.  We had another offense, new skill players, awful tackles, etc.  Most importantly we had Monken and Freddie coordinating a plan Monday-Saturday and Freddie scrapping much of it for what he felt in his huevos on game day, which is something that can’t happen after peewee football.  The organization top down (save DePo obv) scoffed at analytics and it showed (the obnoxious persistent use of an empty backfield for instance).

This should be a make or break year for Baker, but it’s not imo.  Am I supposed to be shocked it he struggles, especially at first?  Goofy TC, no preseason, new offense/coaching staff (again..), virtual minicamps and ish....  Realistically I expect him to be better, sure.  But I’m not going to pretend he’s a finished product when he’s never had more than a season in one offense.

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I mean, he’s a QB not a cornerback.  It wasn’t his physical conditioning that held him back.  He wasn’t turning the ball over because he didn’t do enough cardio in May.

It's a visual representation of how serious he took being a professional athlete, which is an indictment. If he didn't take his physique seriously, good chance he neglected other aspects of his game. It's the same correlation (not causation) between those with teeth decay and heart disease. There's a good chance if you don't take care of your teeth, you likely don't take care of other aspects of your overall health/well being either. It's not to say that failure to brush your teeth makes you fat, because that's asinine, but I think you get my point.

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

His issues are the same issue pretty much everyone else in the organization has had for 20 years, lack of continuity and poor organizational stability.  Obviously the coaching has been atrocious as well.

Agree

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Does he need to learn to read defenses better?  Sure.  Could he have been 10 pounds lighter?  Sure.  

Does he need to stay in the pocket with his eyes up more? Sure

Does he need to limit his turnovers? Sure

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

But someone doesn’t learn to read defenses overnight and again, his weight wasn’t the root of the issue.

See above

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

The issues are obvious by now.  We had another offense, new skill players, awful tackles, etc.  Most importantly we had Monken and Freddie coordinating a plan Monday-Saturday and Freddie scrapping much of it for what he felt in his huevos on game day, which is something that can’t happen after peewee football.  The organization top down (save DePo obv) scoffed at analytics and it showed (the obnoxious persistent use of an empty backfield for instance).

I absolutely agree with all of this.

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

This should be a make or break year for Baker, but it’s not imo.  Am I supposed to be shocked it he struggles, especially at first?  Goofy TC, no preseason, new offense/coaching staff (again..), virtual minicamps and ish....  Realistically I expect him to be better, sure.  But I’m not going to pretend he’s a finished product when he’s never had more than a season in one offense.

I actually 100% support this. I don't expect him to be a finished product yet, and I'll keep an open mind down the stretch of this crazy ridiculous 2020 year/season, but if nothing else, he'd better stand in the pocket and limit his turnovers. Scheme or not, he CAN control that.

[buno67]

2 hours ago, DawgX said:

I've heard mixed reports about him in camp. Some days he looks good, some days he looks bad. I don't think it's totally unexpected given that we're implementing a new scheme and that the defense generally gets the best of the offense during TC.

I hate it that so many people are putting so much stock into training camp right now. We have no idea what they are truly working on, especially since we haven’t had any practice time prior to this. We have no idea what the coaches are trying to do and what they are telling them to do. I say by the first quarter of the season we will know what we truly have. Also he could have bad days because the defense is being called to be the hardest challenge for him and now has those looks on film.

i just think by after the 4th game or so, we should really know where he stands. 
 

don’t forget the Weeden and Kizer looked great in training camps. 

[MWil23]

7 minutes ago, buno67 said:

don’t forget the Weeden and Kizer looked great in training camps. 

LOL

No they didn't

[buno67]

21 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

LOL

No they didn't

I remember them looking a lot better in their training camps then they ever did during a season. Kizer actually looked like he had potential in training camp. Weeden look good as well, not surprised cause the dude threw a pretty ball. 

[ReggieCamp]

We play in 2 weeks.

Holy schnikies.