WindyCity Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 30 minutes ago, G08 said: I don't know if I believe that. Nick Foles has "familiarty in this sytem" and blah blah blah. Look how much the offense as a whole is still struggling. Clearly there is something wrong in the teaching, learning and/or execution of this offense as a whole. You can only coach up bad players to a certain point. The entire Foles thing has largely been a flop. If he is better it is by such a small degree that I am not sure it is worth a 4th round pick and 21 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 @Sugashane @WindyCity Maybe I'm just bitter. I'm convinced that if we drafted Rodgers or Mahomes, they would not be the elite NFL players that they have been in Green Bay and Kansas City, respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 5 hours ago, G08 said: @Sugashane @WindyCity Maybe I'm just bitter. I'm convinced that if we drafted Rodgers or Mahomes, they would not be the elite NFL players that they have been in Green Bay and Kansas City, respectively. Probably not, but they would still be the best QB we have ever had. We are not good at developing QBs. The bigger issue is we are bad at picking them. Deahaun Watson has overcome a complete cluster F in Houston and is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 32 minutes ago, WindyCity said: The bigger issue is we are bad at picking them. Yup. I get that it's hard to do, but our track record is beyond laughable at this point. Still... I give Pace and Nagy one more swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 hour ago, G08 said: Yup. I get that it's hard to do, but our track record is beyond laughable at this point. Still... I give Pace and Nagy one more swing. It is. The incompetence feels like it is in our DNA. It is only made worst by consistent failure to put them in good developmental positions. Pace completely bungling the Mitch pick and development is disheartening. We have to hope that he has learned from his enormous failure and does a better job this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, WindyCity said: It is. The incompetence feels like it is in our DNA. It is only made worst by consistent failure to put them in good developmental positions. Pace completely bungling the Mitch pick and development is disheartening. We have to hope that he has learned from his enormous failure and does a better job this time. I've got an inappropriate man crush on Zach Wilson... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBears019 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, G08 said: I've got an inappropriate man crush on Zach Wilson... I just looked him up...he looks like a child! Am i right or am i just getting old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, CBears019 said: I just looked him up...he looks like a child! Am i right or am i just getting old? Nope thats just @G08's kind of thing. Get the warrant ready. I jest, I jest. Honestly I hope Wilson and Jones both declare, they likely end up fighting for the #4 QB with Trask, so we get a quality shot in the 20s. Jones and Wilson are both looking way better than I ever would have assumed. Does anyone think anyone outside of Lawrence and Fields go before Lance? Genuinely asking, I'm biased so probably not the most reliable to say for sure. Edited October 24, 2020 by Sugashane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 21 hours ago, Sugashane said: He has been able to keep them competitive, but we still are doing the same things as years before. If we can beat GB this year I'll be more content, but at the moment Pace/Nagy are 1 for 4 against GB and offense is still inept with Pace's handpicked HC. He can't use Fox as the reason for the offense's failings (not saying he did, just that it is his and Nagy's combined failure). Nagy is absolutely a talented HC, but he is not a good playcaller and cannot run an offense. If he is not willing to give the team a shot with someone else calling the plays then he is expendable. Pagano and his defense are why the team is competitive, not Nagy. If the reigns were handed to him to be the HC and focus on the defense I am not sure the results are much different. Same with Fangio, either way the defense is stellar and at worse the offense remains trash. I have to disagree that being competitive is enough. Beating up on bad teams and getting handed loss after loss by GB was enough for most of Lovie's tenure, but that isn't good enough. He did a great job of getting the defense fixed but the offense is still terrible, he has failed on that side of the ball worse than Angelo did. In reality we are in an arguably bad position. We are good enough to get to the postseason and then get walked out immediately like in 2018 or just barely miss like 2019. That sucks. It means we aren't legitimate contenders and we are missing out on guys that could be franchise faces. Pace had a chance to get that top QB and either Mahomes or Watson would have been good enough to put points up vs PHI to move on in the playoffs, and both are competent enough that we would have put up more than 17PPG last year, so postseason is almost guaranteed. Honestly, Nagy putting up 17 PPG is WAY more disappointing than Loggains putting up 16 PPG considering the talent Nagy had at his disposal that Loggains lacked. Hell Loggains put up 17 PPG with Barkely, Hoyer, and Cutler each starting 5-6 games. I think both will be back next year, but need to have clear expectations given from the top. McCaskey needs to tell Pace he has to meet certain (realistic) offensive goals or he will be replaced. If he does meet it he can either choose to extend Nagy or pick another guy, or the next GM will pick out his own HC if they don't meet the goals. This is a business and almost any other business will demand certain metrics are met, this should be no different for Nagy and Pace. I don't disagree overall. I was all for firing Pace if the Bears don't make the playoffs this year because this team has the talent. But again, Pace's job is to make this team competitive and he's done that. It doesn't matter HOW or WHY it happens, just as long as it happens. Pace lost Fangio and found a respectable replacement in Pagano. He lost Amos and found a respectable replacement in HHCD for cheap. He lost HHCD and found another respectable (and cheap) replacement in Gipson. He knew Prince was a liability and that he needed a long-term solution at outside CB position and so far it looks like he found it in Jaylon. He knew he needed a LG to replace Long/Coward and he found a respectable replacement in Idefi. He knew he needed to upgrade the TE position and so far he found that in Graham and Kmet. Pace knew that the defense was going to be the core of this team and that the season was going hinder on how well they they played, just like most of us did. I guess I'm one of the few that gauges a GM based on ALL aspects as a whole and not based on how well a GM is at evaluating Qbs and how well they can do when they have elite talent at the QB position. I'm not going to falter Pace because Nagy cannot do his job on offensive side of the ball as the play-caller. Do you feel like the Hawks GM John Schenieder should be fired because his HC is supposed to be a defensive specialist and yet his defenses have been for the last 4 years and haven't even cracked top-10 since 2016, and currently have the 26th worst in the league , 21st in 2019, and 17th in 2018. If Nagy needs Pace to draft and/or acquire elite talent on the offensive side of the ball in order for his offense to work then he is expendable because ANY OC can do that job under those type of conditions. Just like ANY GM is easily expendable when they have an elite coaching staff and talent on both sides of the ball. 22 hours ago, Sugashane said: Nagy is absolutely a talented HC, but he is not a good playcaller and cannot run an offense. If he is not willing to give the team a shot with someone else calling the plays then he is expendable. I agree. Whether or not he is willing to do this is another story. It's going to be a shame to see him get get fired and lose a good HC (which are hard to find) all because he is too hard-headed and stubborn to admit his failures. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said: I'm not going to falter Pace because Nagy cannot do his job on offensive side of the ball as the play-caller. Do you feel like the Hawks GM John Schenieder should be fired because his HC is supposed to be a defensive specialist and yet his defenses have been for the last 4 years and haven't even cracked top-10 since 2016, and currently have the 26th worst in the league , 21st in 2019, and 17th in 2018. If Nagy needs Pace to draft and/or acquire elite talent on the offensive side of the ball in order for his offense to work then he is expendable because ANY OC can do that job under those type of conditions. Just like ANY GM is easily expendable when they have an elite coaching staff and talent on both sides of the ball. I agree. Whether or not he is willing to do this is another story. It's going to be a shame to see him get get fired and lose a good HC (which are hard to find) all because he is too hard-headed and stubborn to admit his failures. I primarily go by PPG in defense since schematically some are meant for bend-but-don't-break or more high-pressure impact play dependent styles, so SEA is ranked 18th right now, 22nd last year, and 11th two years ago in that metric. That is acceptable, especially when the offense is top 10 in each year (currently first). I can't ask for the 85 Bears kind of dominance, but averaging the last 3 years defense as 17th in points scored (just by rankings, not by actual points, sorry I'm lazy) means they are routinely competent on their weakest side of the ball. Meanwhile their offense has been almost as good as our defense has been, while our offense has been putrid overall. In 2018 we had 6 defensive scores inflating our total but that would still put us at 14th or 15th overall IIRC. I'd be fine with that but it was one where we beat the hell out of bad defenses and then completely crap the bed against good ones. Currently I am torn, to be honest. I don't know who is choosing what on offense. Has Nagy been the one requesting guys and Pace, trusting him, has landed the bulk of his requests? Or is Pace trying to get people who fit what Nagy is saying he needs for his supposed "system" to work? I want to believe it is Nagy failing on offense, but Pace has had one acceptable year on offense and that was 2018. So I am not sure he can evaluate that side of the ball well. I want him to succeed but currently just don't have a lot to put faith in on that side with him. 100% agree. He needs to have a system that people can fit into and work cohesively with. But he needs to adapt to the reality of what his players are able to do. When Nagy said he wasn't brought here to run the I formation I was pissed, because that was one of the few effective sets we had at the time. That is his ego to me. I'll repeat it again, IDC if we run Navy's offense or a pass heavy scheme that would make Mike Leach blush, put points on the board. Nagy seems like a good guy and the players seem to like him but damn, produce or let someone else have a shot. Maybe stepping away from playcalling duties will help him, it seemed to with Reid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 10 hours ago, Sugashane said: Nope thats just @G08's kind of thing. Get the warrant ready. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 I don’t think Nagy needs elite offensive talent, I think he needs decent talent. Our QB and OL talent is bottom 1/4 of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G08 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 23 hours ago, WindyCity said: I don’t think Nagy needs elite offensive talent, I think he needs decent talent. Our QB and OL talent is bottom 1/4 of the league. What was Andy Reid's line back in the day? "I want two offensive tackles, a QB, two pass rushers, two corners and I'll figure the rest out". Leno/Massie = Nope Foles/Trubisky = Nope Fuller/Johnson = Yup Mack/Quinn/Hicks = Yup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinz D. Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 On 10/23/2020 at 10:57 PM, G08 said: I've got an inappropriate man crush on Zach Wilson... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 I'm not going to lie, seeing Fields kick *** was sad. I know it is 100% impossible but I keep hoping he falls somehow since Lawrence might as well be declared the number one pick right now. With Wilson, Jones, and Trask thriving so far I wished he'd get the wind knocked out of his sails for the draft. Maybe Lance and one of them jump him and we can make a move up, you know, things that won't happen. QB list is pretty open right now 1- Lawrence 2- Fields 3-6 jumble - Lance, Wilson, Jones, Trask 7 - Newman I just hope they all declare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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