Defense Discussion [2017]

[Stevein2012]

I'm excited for Kenny Clark this year he looks great so far and has a long way to go before he reaches his potential.  Going by the roster lists at NFL.com there are only 48 players on NFL rosters atm that are younger than Clark, that number will be lower when over 1,000 players are cut next week.

[CWood21]

18 hours ago, spilltray said:

This notion that Fackerell is awful just needs to die. He's had some rough moments. He's also had some good ones. I think people just heard the 1v1 reps thing and decided that's it he sucks. I think he's better than guys like Walden and Zombo.

I'd probably echo this sentiment as well.  He gets a bad knock.  Is he a really good pass rusher?  No.  Is he a good #5/#6 OLB?  Sure.  And I think that's where the lack of depth at OLB really hurts him.

[gizmo2012]

What am I missing. I still see potential huge holes at CB and not enough of a pass rush. I just hope Nick Perry isn't hurt too bad. Rollins and Randall are still very shaky IMO. 

[MacReady]

48 minutes ago, gizmo2012 said:

What am I missing. I still see potential huge holes at CB and not enough of a pass rush. I just hope Nick Perry isn't hurt too bad. Rollins and Randall are still very shaky IMO. 

How do you see that?  I see a potential huge hole at QB.  I see a potential huge hole at left tackle.  I see a potential huge hole at kicker, safety, TE...

We can't fit 73 players on a roster with 50 of them being starter quality.  In the NFL, there's your starters, and then there's their backups.  Teams don't have the roster space, the cap space or the talent availability to provide a backup to their backup. 

With that said, Davon House, Damarious Randall, Kevin King, Quinten Rollins and Ladarious Gunter is the strongest and deepest CB group we've had since when we had Shields/Williams/Woodson on our roster, but yeah, sure, "potential" holes.

[Spartacus]

11 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

How do you see that?  I see a potential huge hole at QB.  I see a potential huge hole at left tackle.  I see a potential huge hole at kicker, safety, TE...

We can't fit 73 players on a roster with 50 of them being starter quality.  In the NFL, there's your starters, and then there's their backups.  Teams don't have the roster space, the cap space or the talent availability to provide a backup to their backup. 

With that said, Davon House, Damarious Randall, Kevin King, Quinten Rollins and Ladarious Gunter is the strongest and deepest CB group we've had since when we had Shields/Williams/Woodson on our roster, but yeah, sure, "potential" holes.

TBH do we really know what to expect from House, Randall,  Rollins, or King? On paper it looks deep but Randall and Rollins your expecting to improve from last year, House your expecting to go from being benched to a capable #1 CB, and King is a rookie who so far has looked shaky in coverage. I would say we are deep with potential but literally none of it has been realized yet.

I can understand the hesitancy to say that we are set at the position. I think "Huge Hole" at CB is a little much but I can see where he's coming from.

[MacReady]

10 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

TBH do we really know what to expect from House, Randall,  Rollins, or King? On paper it looks deep but Randall and Rollins your expecting to improve from last year, House your expecting to go from being benched to a capable #1 CB, and King is a rookie who so far has looked shaky in coverage. I would say we are deep with potential but literally none of it has been realized yet.

Please.  House was benched because the Jaguars completely changed what he was expected to do.  Not even the most pessimistic person on this site can ignore the year he had in 2015 where did exactly what he's going to be expected to do for us here. 

Trying to use "he got benched" as an excuse to suggest he's not very good is like saying we traded Brett Favre because he wasn't good anymore.  And Favre led the Mangini Jets to an 8-3 record, including defeating the 10-0 Titans with Coles and Cotchery as his receivers before he tore his biceps tendon, and then had literally his best year in a Hall of Fame career the following year.

"Randall and Rollins your expecting to improve from last year," kinda like we've had every single year at least one player make a major leap from second to third year performance in the history of Ted Thompson's time here?  Or maybe they just won't be injured literally half of the year like they were last year. 

@Cadmus, I think it was you who provided an in depth look at House's 2015 season.  Please remind everyone. 

"Literally none of it has been realized yet."  Yeah.  Right.  Okay. 

Fact is we're strong at corner no matter how you want to look at it.  One injury and we're not as strong as we were.  Just like literally every strong position group for every team that has a strong position group until one of them gets hurt.  This is like saying we're potentially very weak at QB.  That reality is true for literally every team, and right now, going into the season, we're strong at CB no matter what you or anybody else wants to say. 

It's literally the same situation we were in going from two years ago to last year except you can swap WR with CB.

2015, we lost Jordy Nelson to an injury.  Our receivers were hurt all year.  We struggled on offense.  Adams was hurt all year, he performed poorly.  Cobb was hurt all year, he performed poorly. 
2016, we lost Sam Shields to an injury.  Our corners were hurt all year.  We struggled on defense.  Randall was hurt all year, he performed poorly.  Rollins was hurt all year, he performed poorly. 

2016, "Davante Adams sucks, he's not good, he can't do anything, we're one injury away from our receivers sucking.  I'm going to say this because it is a fact and I want to doubt."

2017, "Damarious Randall sucks, he's not good, he can't do anything, we're one injury away from our corners sucking.  I'm going to say this because it is a fact and I want to doubt and I don't want to look at the very real bright side." 

2016 in reality, Adams had a near pro bowl season and showed that not only does he belong, but that he can thrive in his role.  Cobb didn't perform as well, but he stayed healthy, and thus effective.

2017 ... Fill in the blanks. 

[Shanedorf]

 Here is a link to the old FF site and the comprehensive post that Cadmus assembled on CB Davon House. Top- notch effort

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=586882

 

[packfanfb]

18 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Please.  House was benched because the Jaguars completely changed what he was expected to do.  Not even the most pessimistic person on this site can ignore the year he had in 2015 where did exactly what he's going to be expected to do for us here. 

Trying to use "he got benched" as an excuse to suggest he's not very good is like saying we traded Brett Favre because he wasn't good anymore.  And Favre led the Mangini Jets to an 8-3 record, including defeating the 10-0 Titans with Coles and Cotchery as his receivers before he tore his biceps tendon, and then had literally his best year in a Hall of Fame career the following year.

"Randall and Rollins your expecting to improve from last year," kinda like we've had every single year at least one player make a major leap from second to third year performance in the history of Ted Thompson's time here?  Or maybe they just won't be injured literally half of the year like they were last year. 

@Cadmus, I think it was you who provided an in depth look at House's 2015 season.  Please remind everyone. 

"Literally none of it has been realized yet."  Yeah.  Right.  Okay. 

Fact is we're strong at corner no matter how you want to look at it.  One injury and we're not as strong as we were.  Just like literally every strong position group for every team that has a strong position group until one of them gets hurt.  This is like saying we're potentially very weak at QB.  That reality is true for literally every team, and right now, going into the season, we're strong at CB no matter what you or anybody else wants to say. 

It's literally the same situation we were in going from two years ago to last year except you can swap WR with CB.

2015, we lost Jordy Nelson to an injury.  Our receivers were hurt all year.  We struggled on offense.  Adams was hurt all year, he performed poorly.  Cobb was hurt all year, he performed poorly. 
2016, we lost Sam Shields to an injury.  Our corners were hurt all year.  We struggled on defense.  Randall was hurt all year, he performed poorly.  Rollins was hurt all year, he performed poorly. 

2016, "Davante Adams sucks, he's not good, he can't do anything, we're one injury away from our receivers sucking.  I'm going to say this because it is a fact and I want to doubt."

2017, "Damarious Randall sucks, he's not good, he can't do anything, we're one injury away from our corners sucking.  I'm going to say this because it is a fact and I want to doubt and I don't want to look at the very real bright side." 

2016 in reality, Adams had a near pro bowl season and showed that not only does he belong, but that he can thrive in his role.  Cobb didn't perform as well, but he stayed healthy, and thus effective.

2017 ... Fill in the blanks. 

"Strong at corner" is a little over-selling it and that is what Spartacus is hitting on I think. The unit is more of a "potential" unit versus a "results" unit to date. House is a proven vet, a very capable No. 2 guy who should work in our system. Behind him, it is less certain. All we have to go by for Rollins and Randall is a rookie season (up and down like most rookie CBs) followed by a "hit the reset button b/c of injury" season for both of them. So we don't really know who Randall and Rollins are...yet. Presumably as 3rd year, non-injured corners, they should be better than rookie and/or 2nd year, injured corners. But if I said they won't be much better and you said they absolutely will be a lot better, we'd both be speculating unless one of us can see into the future. 

Same goes for the rest of the group. I do like the fact that Gunter is pretty much CB No. 5 instead of No. 1-2 like last year. That alone, I'll give you, shows we are "deeper" at the position on paper, which should translate into "better" as well, hopefully. But, there are varying degrees of "better" and I will not begin to be able to say this is a "strong" unit until they prove it on the field. Comparing them to the veteran group we had in Woodson, Williams, Shields, etc. doesn't really do it for me. That group had proven their success, this group hasn't. Moreover, your comparison to the Adams situation is just that, a comparison based on unknown facts. No one here has absolutely any idea whether Randall/Rollins will take a similar path like Adams, or whether they are both Ahmad Carroll 2.0's. Now if Randall and Rollins play above-average-to-good CB play this year and King progresses throughout the year and House plays at the level we expect, then by the END of the year, you might be able to say we have the makings of a strong unit for a run this year and beyond. 

[vegas492]

34 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

 Here is a link to the old FF site and the comprehensive post that Cadmus assembled on CB Davon House. Top- notch effort

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=586882

 

One of the best, if not the best, write up of a player that I've seen on a forum.  Amazing work.  Said it before, I'll say it again...thank you for that analysis and that thread, Cadmus.

[Spartacus]

 

19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Trying to use "he got benched" as an excuse to suggest he's not very good is like saying we traded Brett Favre because he wasn't good anymore.  And Favre led the Mangini Jets to an 8-3 record, including defeating the 10-0 Titans with Coles and Cotchery as his receivers before he tore his biceps tendon, and then had literally his best year in a Hall of Fame career the following year.

I'm not using he got benched to assume he's is not very good but that we don't exactly know what we have with him yet.  I wasn't really making a statement myself but more defending Gizmos statement a bit and disagreeing with your response. Your using a logical fallacy comparing a QB benching to a corner but I'm not going to touch on that.

19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

"Randall and Rollins your expecting to improve from last year," kinda like we've had every single year at least one player make a major leap from second to third year performance in the history of Ted Thompson's time here?  Or maybe they just won't be injured literally half of the year like they were last year. 

Players do take leaps but they all regress or never improve. You seem extremely confident that both Randall and Rollins will improve or least one of them will. That's not necessarily the case. I'm not disagreeing it won't happen I'm just not assuming its going to happen.

19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

@Cadmus, I think it was you who provided an in depth look at House's 2015 season.  Please remind everyone. 

I've seen it and I am excited to see what House can do.

19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

"Literally none of it has been realized yet."  Yeah.  Right.  Okay. 

Put this in the "How do we Improve the forum" into posts on why some of the more intelligent posters have left and why you can't get new posters to stay. Your just being a ****.

19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Fact is we're strong at corner no matter how you want to look at it.  One injury and we're not as strong as we were.  Just like literally every strong position group for every team that has a strong position group until one of them gets hurt.  This is like saying we're potentially very weak at QB.  That reality is true for literally every team, and right now, going into the season, we're strong at CB no matter what you or anybody else wants to say. 

If by "Strong at corner" you mean have a lot of potentially talented corners I agree but if you mean Strong as in a top CB unit in the NFL at this moment I disagree with the "Its a fact" statement.  Even without injuries this year we have one guy who had a great 2015 to not play great in 2016. Could it be totally because of the scheme change? Yes and I hope it is but do we really know till he plays meaningful snaps? Two corners who showed promise in year 1 just to regress in year 2. Could it be totally injury related? Yes, but are you really sure till they play meaningful snaps? One rookie corner who has been both good and bad in preseason.

 

19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

It's literally the same situation we were in going from two years ago to last year except you can swap WR with CB.

I can see a lot of similarities between the two but I think its too early to say that corner will mirror what happened at WR. You forget that Jordy came back the next year Shields isn't coming back.

[MacReady]

Just now, Spartacus said:

Put this in the "How do we Improve the forum" into posts on why some of the more intelligent posters have left and why you can't get new posters to stay. Your just being a ****.

Lol.  "Yeah.  Right.  Okay." is being a ****?  I literally talk like that to everybody.  Even people I like.  If that type of sarcasm is too rough for you, I'm genuinely curious how you make it in life without thinking everybody is a ****. 

[TheOnlyThing]

Very well stated (and measured) post Spartacus, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

I too am optimistic that the CB play will improve this season with the additions of House and King and even more because I can't imagine the position being as decimated by injury as it was in 2016.

That said, it is hardly Packer blasphemy to question whether the CB position will in fact be a position of strength in 2017. 

[CWood21]

14 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Lol.  "Yeah.  Right.  Okay." is being a ****?  I literally talk like that to everybody.  Even people I like.  If that type of sarcasm is too rough for you, I'm genuinely curious how you make it in life without thinking everybody is a ****. 

Horizon, knock it off.

[MacReady]

Just now, TheOnlyThing said:

That said, it is hardly Packer blasphemy to question whether the CB position will in fact be a position of strength in 2017. 

That's not even what this is about.  There's this prevailing sense that CB is a position to worry about when it's not.  If you consider the 2016 season to have consisted of Randall, Rollins, Gunter and Hyde (as it did), and if you consider the 2016 season to have consisted of Randall (hurt) Rollins (hurt) Gunter and Hyde, which it was, you're looking at House, King, healthy Randall, healthy Rollins.  That is easily the most improved position group we've had, maybe ever.  Note the improved part.  And yet people are still acting as if it's the logical conclusion to be skeptical.  The logical conclusion is to be optimistic, not pessimistic, when it comes to the CB position, and people saying that area treated like eternal optimists when it's not optimism saying that it's our most improved position group, it's realism. 

[MacReady]

Just now, CWood21 said:

Horizon, knock it off.

Seriously?  What I said wasn't remotely bad.  Literally everybody on this site has used "Yeah.  Right.  Okay."  Or some variation of it and the dude tries to suggest I'm being a whatever "****" was because he didn't like the fact that I pointed out obvious flaws in his argument.  I know he's knew and everything and I know he's not a troll or anything, but I didn't say "Yeah.  Right.  Okay."  Because he's knew, I would have said that to literally anybody who used his argument. 

Yeah, yeah, I'll drop it.  Dropped.  Consider it dropped.