SkippyX Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 12 teams make the playoffs every year. Only 5 of them can have a top 5 D Somewhere between 12 and 20 teams have a winning record each year (depends on 8-8s, very bad, or very good teams) Only 10 of them can have a top 10 run game. Some of them win with outstanding QB play that elevates their otherwise mediocre team. The 2006 Colts won the SB with the 23/21 ranked D The 2009 Saints won the Super Bowl with the 20/25 ranked D The 2011 Giants won the Super Bowl with the 25/27 ranked D The Patriots team they beat was ranked 15/31 on D The 2016 Falcons were ranked 27/25 on D Not having the 1985 Bears around you is not an excuse to lose close games or failure to win a playoff game in 12 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 3 hours ago, ET80 said: I'm so glad this is quickly becoming the narrative in our little community. W/L are a a team stat. W/L are a team stat They are also a coach stat They are also a QB stat. A RB can stay in the same place with decent stats without ever having winning seasons. The last QB to do that might have been Archie Manning. Why do you think that is? Maybe because owners and GMs very much consider W/Ls a QB stat? Do me a favor and tell me the W/L record of Takeo Spikes and Anquan Bolden. Why would this be difficult? I can easily give you the record of Kerry Collins and Mark Sanchez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) The ironic thing about the baseball comment is that W/Ls are being discounted for pitchers in baseball. Jacob deGrom won back to back Cy Young awards with 10-9 and 11-8 records. The runner ups were 18-7 and 14-5 but he had better standard and advanced metrics. Are we expecting Deshaun Watson to finish 2nd in MVP voting? His numbers were great, but his team lost as a team. Edited February 3, 2021 by SkippyX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 12 hours ago, Deadpulse said: its not that simple, that's why you look at all the metrics... Again there are so many better (albeit flawed), why should wins be a factor. Without it, you can fairly compare QBs fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 11 hours ago, jrry32 said: You're forgetting another important thing. "Individual" stats in a team game have major limitations. And I’ve mentioned that they’re flawed. That being said, if I want to evaluate an individual player why wouldn’t I heavily favour individual stats over team stats when I’m focusing on an individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 3 hours ago, SkippyX said: W/L are a team stat They are also a coach stat They are also a QB stat. A RB can stay in the same place with decent stats without ever having winning seasons. The last QB to do that might have been Archie Manning. Why do you think that is? Maybe because owners and GMs very much consider W/Ls a QB stat? Do me a favor and tell me the W/L record of Takeo Spikes and Anquan Bolden. Why would this be difficult? I can easily give you the record of Kerry Collins and Mark Sanchez. Wait because the media has decided to be lazy and attach wins to QBs we have to a accept the status quo? Yeah no thanks. I’d rather challenge it. The sooner we move away from it, the better we’ll be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 6 hours ago, SkippyX said: Stafford was in a terrible situation in Detroit for about a year and 3 games after being drafted. Things were pretty bad with Patricia but Stafford was a major reason that Caldwell was fired. ... what? Only a year and three games? Bottom five defense on numerous occasions, very little running game, average-at-best protection and decent (albeit inconsistent) weapons. This is exactly what box scores and nothing else gets you. No, Stafford was not a "major reason" that Caldwell was fired. The major reason? Mayhew's poor drafting. Here are all the picks he made in the first three rounds of each draft from 2010-2015: (bold = good pick) 2010:1.2: Ndamukong Suh 1.30: Jahvid Best (RB) 3.66: Amari Spievey 2011: 1.13: Nick Fairley 2.44: Titus Young (WR) 2.57: Mike Leshoure (RB) 2012:1.23: Riley Reiff 2.54: Ryan Broyles (WR) 3.85: Bill Bentley 2013:1.5: Ezekiel Ansah 2.36: Darius Slay3.65: Larry Warford 2014: 1.10: Eric Ebron (TE) 2.40: Kyle Van Noy 3.76: Travis Swanson 2015: 1.28: Laken Tomlinson 2.54: Ameer Abdullah (RB) 3.80: Alex Carter So. Many. Bad. Picks. (And I'm iffy on Fairley, as he had to be pushed to stay in shape and stay consistent on the field. He eventually didn't have his 5th year option picked up. At #13 in the draft, you're certainly hoping for more.) Many believe that Stafford developed - and even thrived - during the Caldwell era. Box score scouting may not lead you to that same conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 35 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: ... what? Only a year and three games? Bottom five defense on numerous occasions, very little running game, average-at-best protection and decent (albeit inconsistent) weapons. This is exactly what box scores and nothing else gets you. No, Stafford was not a "major reason" that Caldwell was fired. The major reason? Mayhew's poor drafting. Here are all the picks he made in the first three rounds of each draft from 2010-2015: (bold = good pick) 2010:1.2: Ndamukong Suh 1.30: Jahvid Best (RB) 3.66: Amari Spievey 2011: 1.13: Nick Fairley 2.44: Titus Young (WR) 2.57: Mike Leshoure (RB) 2012:1.23: Riley Reiff 2.54: Ryan Broyles (WR) 3.85: Bill Bentley 2013:1.5: Ezekiel Ansah 2.36: Darius Slay3.65: Larry Warford 2014: 1.10: Eric Ebron (TE) 2.40: Kyle Van Noy 3.76: Travis Swanson 2015: 1.28: Laken Tomlinson 2.54: Ameer Abdullah (RB) 3.80: Alex Carter So. Many. Bad. Picks. (And I'm iffy on Fairley, as he had to be pushed to stay in shape and stay consistent on the field. He eventually didn't have his 5th year option picked up. At #13 in the draft, you're certainly hoping for more.) Many believe that Stafford developed - and even thrived - during the Caldwell era. Box score scouting may not lead you to that same conclusion. as a lions fan i diagree. those picks were all starters. injuries ruined their seasons and then new coaching only made it worse. Leshoure and Best were about to exciting before BRAIN injuries and RUPTURED ACHILLES took them out...thts not Mayhews fault...Stafford will be loved byy some but probably hated by more. I am happy to see him leave. Don't think he can win a super bowl. but thats just me. I watched every game. Yeah stafford has a strong arm. but man he was just a pain to watch compared to almost all the new QBS...Allen...Mahomes...Watson...even Murray or Jackson. Herbert, burrow, ETC. Im ready for change. Oh and for Stafford lovers...just look at his record for teams above .500...a year ago he was Stafford 7-56 .111 vs teams above .500 on the season... probably even worse now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, NFL_Fan said: as a lions fan i diagree. those picks were all starters. injuries ruined their seasons and then new coaching only made it worse. Leshoure and Best were about to exciting before BRAIN injuries and RUPTURED ACHILLES took them out...thts not Mayhews fault...Stafford will be loved byy some but probably hated by more. I am happy to see him leave. Don't think he can win a super bowl. but thats just me. I watched every game. Yeah stafford has a strong arm. but man he was just a pain to watch compared to almost all the new QBS...Allen...Mahomes...Watson...even Murray or Jackson. Herbert, burrow, ETC. Im ready for change. Oh and for Stafford lovers...just look at his record for teams above .500...a year ago he was Stafford 7-56 .111 vs teams above .500 on the season... probably even worse now... Starters? All of them? Being a bad starter on a bad team doesn't make you a good draft pick. When you draft a player like Best, who has a well-documented history of brain injuries, and his career is cut to 15 total starts due to a brain injury... that's a bad 1st round pick. You took a risk. You missed. That's a bad pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NFL_Fan Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Starters? All of them? Being a bad starter on a bad team doesn't make you a good draft pick. When you draft a player like Best, who has a well-documented history of brain injuries, and his career is cut to 15 total starts due to a brain injury... that's a bad 1st round pick. You took a risk. You missed. That's a bad pick. true definitely a risk and yeah you I agree it was "bad" at the end of the day because of the concussions. even though the talent was there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 20 minutes ago, NFL_Fan said: true definitely a risk and yeah you I agree it was "bad" at the end of the day because of the concussions. even though the talent was there. Which is such a shame. I was watching Jahvid Best highlights a few weeks ago. The kid was special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 17 hours ago, FrantikRam said: I think some Rams fans who avidly defended Goff probably also colored the perspective. He clearly held the team back this year, to the point that I think McVay had to change his offense to make up for Goff's regression.l He clearly did. Goff was unloading bombs in his good year. The season just finished, he threw 2 passes beyond 20 yards in the final 5 game stretch. He was abysmally conservative, and McVay must have been burning inside. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 I see the pro-Goff Ram fans are still crediting him for wins, but expunging him of blame for losses. Carry on.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortdetroit Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 9 hours ago, SkippyX said: 12 teams make the playoffs every year. Only 5 of them can have a top 5 D Somewhere between 12 and 20 teams have a winning record each year (depends on 8-8s, very bad, or very good teams) Only 10 of them can have a top 10 run game. Some of them win with outstanding QB play that elevates their otherwise mediocre team. The 2006 Colts won the SB with the 23/21 ranked D The 2009 Saints won the Super Bowl with the 20/25 ranked D The 2011 Giants won the Super Bowl with the 25/27 ranked D The Patriots team they beat was ranked 15/31 on D The 2016 Falcons were ranked 27/25 on D Not having the 1985 Bears around you is not an excuse to lose close games or failure to win a playoff game in 12 years. That’s great. Still missing the point. The 2016 Falcons were 19th in defensive DVOA and 4th in rushing. Stafford has literally never been on a team with a supporting cast playing that well combined. I should have used DVOA when looking at Stafford’s defenses (and it makes things look a little bit better) and not points per game, but my overall point still stands. The 2011 Giants were 21st in defensive DVOA and 17th in rushing DVOA. Again, a combined supporting cast performance that Stafford has gotten like one total time in his career. Sorry Stafford didn’t win the SB the one time in his career his supporting cast combined to be middle of the pack. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalvadorsDeli Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Didn't Lions fans used to say that Caldwell deserved to be fired because he was underachieving by 'only' making the playoffs? But now that it comes time to put some gloss on Stafford the new narrative is that the Lions were actually horrible the whole time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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