Stafford traded to the Rams for Goff, multiple FRPs

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

37 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

I am pointing out why he is not elite.

• The guy was a number 1 pick in the NFL. 
• He is the 21st highest rated passer.
• He's made pro bowls.
• He's not trash and I never said he was.
• I'm not hot take Harry trying to say Wade Wilson was better.

In this very thread you have said that Stafford "has been a bad QB". You've spent pages listing negative stats to support that argument. This thread. Many disagreed, arguing that his routinely weak supporting cast has led a lot of those underwhelming stats and the accumulation of losses. You called those responses "garbage eye tests". (Or something.)

When asked what you think Stafford truly is, your response: "I think he is a good QB (top 10 at times, maybe top 14 now) who has not played on great teams."

I don't think I've read a single post calling Stafford an "elite QB". If that's what you're arguing to disprove, you've spent pages and pages rebutting an argument that no one has made. Not a single person is arguing that Stafford is a top 5 QB. Not one.

Actually, I'd say that most people would agree with your take: a "good QB", fringe top 10, whose has never had a great supporting cast.

The real question: what are you doing?

Edited February 2, 2021 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[Superduperman]

5 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

If Mcvay turned Goff around.. I’m 100% sure he can convert Stafford into a top Qb. People forget the nasty things that were said about Goff.. And he was so much worse than Stafford ever was his rookie year. People gave up on him. The old players gave up on him! And Sean molded him. There’s been many reports that the reason Sean was infuriated with Goff! Is that he lacked work ethic. He didn’t put the time in. And honestly by his play the last 2 years I can see that being the case. I just can’t explain how he went from being a top 10 QB to a huge massive regression! Other than not putting in the hours.. Maybe his GF or the contracts made him too comfortable. Goff never improved after his 3rd year. He went from being one of the best deep ball throwers to one of the worst.. Dude was so Agressive and we begged him to take the dump offs! Now these last 2 years he went full dink and dunk.. 

You know what's funny, is Stafford followed that exact same pattern. After his 2011 season of 5000 yards, he started throwing a ton of picks. We brought in Joe Lombardi as OC and he started going to a ton of checkdowns for the next couple of seasons. Under Jim Bob Cooter, he started coming back to throwing downfield but it wasn't till the last two years with Bevell that he really started being aggressive downfield again.

[Kip Smithers]

32 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

It still carries weight whether you like it or not. Two QBs could have the exact same stats but one wins more games. That tells you one of two things, that one QB pads his stats or one QB has had a worse supporting cast. You are correct that it is not isolated to a QB performance but to a team performance (at least I am pretty sure that is what you were getting at), but that does not invalidate it from offering valuable perspective when look at a QB given how heavily they are involved in the outcome of games. Standing on its own it holds much less value, but with other stats and metrics it offers a perspective that needs to be considered. 

If two QBs can have different stats but producing starkly different results with regards to wins and losses then that just tells you QBs don’t have as much an impact on the outcome of a game as y’all think. Simple as that.

[FrantikRam]

I think some Rams fans who avidly defended Goff probably also colored the perspective. He clearly held the team back this year, to the point that I think McVay had to change his offense to make up for Goff's regression.l

[stl4life07]

6 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

I think some Rams fans who avidly defended Goff probably also colored the perspective. He clearly held the team back this year, to the point that I think McVay had to change his offense to make up for Goff's regression.l

I think you have somewhat of a point. Remember in 2017 and 2018 the Rams was running nothing but 11 personnel which is 3 WR sets. Then in 2019 and 2020 the offense started using more 12 personnel. However I think when McVay was the OC in Washington he did use the tight ends more and that is what made Jordan Reed great. The Rams never did get that Reed type of tight end. They thought it was Everett but he never lived up to that. Higbee isnt in the same mold as Reed. The Rams draft Hopkins who is similar to Everett so maybe he can be that Jordan Reed in the Rams offense moving forward because Everett isnt coming back. Stafford was great with Hockenson. I feel like Higbee and/or Hopkins will be a big factor with Stafford pushing the ball down the field. 

But yeah I think McVay had to change the offense not just because Goff regressed but defenses figured the Rams out. McVay had to change his fastball. He had to evolve himself and quite frankly Im surprised for 2 years straight going nothing but 11 personnel worked as much as it did. The thing Stafford will have that he didnt have in Detroit is alot of pre snap motions. Detroit to little to none of it to throw off defenses. And the obvious is having a running game with Akers and Henderson. Stafford only 11 times in his 12 year career did he walk off the field having a 100yd rusher in a game. You cant be successful win no running game. 

[Deadpulse]

16 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

If two QBs can have different stats but producing starkly different results with regards to wins and losses then that just tells you QBs don’t have as much an impact on the outcome of a game as y’all think. Simple as that.

its not that simple, that's why you look at all the metrics...

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

10 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

its not that simple, that's why you look at all the metrics...

And, based on metrics, one concludes that Stafford "has been a bad QB", but is actually a "good QB, top 10 at times". Because that's what SkippyX has concluded: he has been bad, but is actually good.

Metrics are great.

[Deadpulse]

6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

And, based on metrics, one concludes that Stafford "has been a bad QB", but is actually a "good QB, top 10 at times". Because that's what SkippyX has concluded: he has been bad, but is actually good.

Metrics are great.

I'm not Skip, I'm not even advocating his opinion lol

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

I'm not Skip, I'm not even advocating his opinion lol

 

Sure. But here we are: we've considered SkippyX's metrics. Based on those metrics, SkippyX believes that Stafford "has been a bad QB". SkippyX's opinion of Stafford is that he's a "good QB", teeters near the top 10 at times, and hasn't played on great teams.

Doesn't his non-metric opinion of Stafford seem to parallel what nearly everyone is saying about Stafford, despite the existence of those metrics? As a result, doesn't that speak volumes about the use of metrics in a conversation such as this?

Please, help. I'm confused, and I'd love some clarity.

[SkippyX]

7 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

And, based on metrics, one concludes that Stafford "has been a bad QB", but is actually a "good QB, top 10 at times". Because that's what SkippyX has concluded: he has been bad, but is actually good.

Metrics are great.

I am sure everyone is so impressed by your hurt feelings about me.

Go to the mirror and flex. You have won the internets ( in your opinion ) !  🤡

Adults discussing top 20 QB play on a message board will point out flaws for the guys they think are closer to 15 than 5

Apparently this hurts some feelings.

 

Here's another metric for everyone who is not you 

Look at Stafford's PFF grades.

• They don't care about winning or talent but performance (in theory anyway)
• Foles 4th highest rated 2013 only scored a 76.3 despite the stats and the 8-2 record

 

You will notice that Stafford has lots of high 70s to low 80s. This is pretty good.

• He had some dips 2011-2012 (73s) and 2014-2015 (66 and 69)
• Hey, maybe the year you had a great D was not a good time to kinda suck? Maybe?

Then you look at everyone else.

Cousins 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020 are better than any 4 Stafford years. (yes, he had a bad 2017)

The Vikings did not give up a single pick for Cousins and they did not magically win a Super Bowl

They regressed from 2017 instead of taking it to the next level.

 

Watson's 3 years as a starter are better than any 3 Stafford put together (even with the 9-7s and the losing)

Now try Matt Ryan and Tannehill's peaks.

Don't even bother with the elites like Brady, Brees, Rodgers

 

Look at Eli 2010-2012 (without the winning in the playoffs of course)

Eli was not as good as peak Stafford then, but it was close.

I don't think Cooper Manning thinks Eli was elite.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

TL;DR: is Stafford bad or good?

[SkippyX]

This does not mean PFF is infallible, or great, or even all that usefull.

But its yet another in a long list of data points that show Stafford is the 15 instead of the 5.

 

Again, this does not even mean that McVay can't think Stafford is the 8th best and that Goff is the 18th and this was all worth it to him. To both improve at QB and to move on from one he does not like at this point

(move the numbers around as you want)

Goff failed him in that Super Bowl. McVay will be judged on this. It was bold now lets see if it pays off.

His decision did not alter the reality of 2009-2020.

 

I never tell people what to think. I just show them that there may be reasons to reconsider lazy preconceived notions.

Its not real popular in 2021 USA.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

2 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

I never tell people what to think.

Thank goodness. Imagine the confusion if you could draw a third conclusion in all of this.

Edit: can you name the person(s) in this thread that called Stafford "elite"? You referenced this, and I'm curious.

Edited February 2, 2021 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Kip Smithers said:

If two QBs can have different stats but producing starkly different results with regards to wins and losses then that just tells you QBs don’t have as much an impact on the outcome of a game as y’all think. Simple as that.

You're forgetting another important thing. "Individual" stats in a team game have major limitations.

1 hour ago, El Ramster said:

There’s been many reports that the reason Sean was infuriated with Goff! Is that he lacked work ethic. He didn’t put the time in. And honestly by his play the last 2 years I can see that being the case. I just can’t explain how he went from being a top 10 QB to a huge massive regression! Other than not putting in the hours.. 

I think that's the sort of BS that teams leak to justify their moves. I don't respect that character assassination BS. How do I explain the regression? Take a look at Peyton Manning's career. He had the same exact sort of regression. Was he lazy too? The way to explain it is young pocket passers being volatile from year to year. It's how a guy like Stafford goes from 5000+ yards and 40+ TDs at 23 years old to being below average at 24 years old. It's not because Stafford was lazy. It's because young pocket passers aren't consistent.

[fortdetroit]

27 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

You're forgetting another important thing. "Individual" stats in a team game have major limitations.

I think that's the sort of BS that teams leak to justify their moves. I don't respect that character assassination BS. How do I explain the regression? Take a look at Peyton Manning's career. He had the same exact sort of regression. Was he lazy too? The way to explain it is young pocket passers being volatile from year to year. It's how a guy like Stafford goes from 5000+ yards and 40+ TDs at 23 years old to being below average at 24 years old. It's not because Stafford was lazy. It's because young pocket passers aren't consistent.

Difference is that Goff was always a byproduct of the offense, rather than the driver of the offense.