Deadpulse Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 Just now, Kip Smithers said: Watch the games and all the context you need is right there. It ain’t hard. It’s bad enough how QB stats can be misleading but for the sake of argument let’s view that as an acceptable measure. Now we wanna do wins when so many things go into that? The QB wins stat is pathetic. I dont see anyone claiming anything SOLELY on wins. Again though, you can't identify the context you are looking for. "Watch the games" is not really viable when discussing CAREERS on a forum. It's also not definitive context for proofing anything. It's a cop out for disagreeing with someone when you have nothing to back up your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 27 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: of course it does, it was in @SkippyX's post comparing it to other teams with low talent and higher win% He listed stats, wins, and mentioned a few underwhelming quarterbacks. None of that accurately depicts Stafford's ability and the Lions' organizational ineptitude. And, of course, everything he's listing is negative, as if this guy hasn't accomplished anything throughout his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadpulse Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: He listed stats, wins, and mentioned a few underwhelming quarterbacks. None of that accurately depicts Stafford's ability and the Lions' organizational ineptitude. And, of course, everything he's listing is negative, as if this guy hasn't accomplished anything throughout his career. He's comparing whole teams. How else do you depict a players ability outside of comparing his and his team to other players and teams in similar situations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: I dont see anyone claiming anything SOLELY on wins. Again though, you can't identify the context you are looking for. "Watch the games" is not really viable when discussing CAREERS on a forum. It's also not definitive context for proofing anything. It's a cop out for disagreeing with someone when you have nothing to back up your opinion. Then don’t use that metric then. Laziness isn’t an excuse. Don’t care if it’s not viable. There’s an offense, defense and special teams. DeShaun Watson was just on a 4 win team. That’s less than whatever QB 49ers throughout there. Less than the WFT. Giants won a game with Colt McCoy. Less than the Cowboys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: He listed stats, wins, and mentioned a few underwhelming quarterbacks. None of that accurately depicts Stafford's ability and the Lions' organizational ineptitude. And, of course, everything he's listing is negative, as if this guy hasn't accomplished anything throughout his career. I am giving reality based comparison and you bring up eye test garbage. Stafford has been a bad QB and people pretend he is great. I am searching for evidence one way or the other like when I said he obliterated the Packers in that one year like when I showed that he had 7 games of 110+ rating and 8 of 100+ that one year. I did not invent his bad play getting Caldwell fired. (Manning got Mora fired with 6 pick sixes, but he got better) I did not invent his pick sixes I did not invent his pathetic record vs playoff teams and vs winning teams. I did not invent him playing with Calvin Johnson for 7 years. You SUBJECTIVELY like the guy so you refuse to acknowledge reality. Its 2021, you are not original in that. You want to dig into his run game and how mediocre to bad it was? No one is stopping you. Make absolutely sure that like with good running QBs, you take out Stafford's often awful running ability. He's a 3.5 guy overall His lead backs in 2014 were 3.9 which is below mediocre. The team rushing was worse with Stafford's 2.2 ypc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 WINS only matter if you are not a LOSER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Deadpulse said: He's comparing whole teams. How else do you depict a players ability outside of comparing his and his team to other players and teams in similar situations? "Similar situations". What? You know what's amazing about this place? If I made a thread praising the Lions organization over the past 12 years, I'd get blasted (and rightfully so). In that thread, it would be argued that the Lions organization may be the worst organization in professional sports. Those arguments would be reasonable. This is completely forgotten when it comes to reflecting on Stafford's career. In the one year where the Lions had a legitimate defense, they went 11-5. He has never had the support of a strong running game, the offensive line was almost always suspect, and the weapons haven't consistently been a strength. Despite this, the guy has done some pretty good things. Is it no coincidence that those that have watched him play extensively all believe that those (few) stats are misleading? That McVay would trade Goff and future 1sts for a 32 year old QB that has so many negative stats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 16 minutes ago, Deadpulse said: I dont see anyone claiming anything SOLELY on wins. Again though, you can't identify the context you are looking for. "Watch the games" is not really viable when discussing CAREERS on a forum. It's also not definitive context for proofing anything. It's a cop out for disagreeing with someone when you have nothing to back up your opinion. To be fair I think posts like this line below shows why @Kip Smithers is addressing the flaw with the W argument. 3 minutes ago, SkippyX said: WINS only matter if you are not a LOSER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, SkippyX said: I am giving reality based comparison and you bring up eye test garbage. Stafford has been a bad QB and people pretend he is great. Alright. Lets test this theory. Lets see if you'll back it up. You're claiming here that Stafford has been a bad QB. You've supported this using wins and stats. Fine. 1. Do you think Stafford is a bad QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BStanRamFan Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 36 minutes ago, 1ForTheThumb said: Yes please tell me to watch the tape again. Go on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 AGAINST PLAYOFF TEAMS: Watson (2017) 1-3 Watson (2018) 2-3 Watson (2019) 3-2 Watson (2020) 0-9 Watson = Not a good QB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 QB wins is a flawed stat, but it should also be used if you can apply nuance. No position in sport is as influential to winning than QB, so I think wins should be considered somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKSteeler Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: AGAINST PLAYOFF TEAMS: Watson (2017) 1-3 Watson (2018) 2-3 Watson (2019) 3-2 Watson (2020) 0-9 Watson = Not a good QB Watson = overrated QB, at least the way some people on here are so sure he's top 5. He has tended to come up very small against the better competition he's faced in his career and his play is a big part of that. But Watson is younger with room to grow. He's been on competitive teams. Stafford is 32, coming off two injury plagued seasons and his Lions being anything but a doormat has been the exception in his career. Even when they were competing for the playoffs, they were something like a good bad team with an offense that often came up small when it mattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said: Alright. Lets test this theory. Lets see if you'll back it up. You're claiming here that Stafford has been a bad QB. You've supported this using wins and stats. Fine. 1. Do you think Stafford is a bad QB? I think he is a good QB (top 10 at times, maybe top 14 now) who has not played on great teams. Brett Farve might have played on 3 elite teams (he got to 2 SBs and an NFCCG) Favre also won playoff games with good teams (and gunslingered some losses too) I'm not going to kill Stafford for losing his last playoff game vs Seattle. An elite QB wins those other games. An elite QB when he finally gets a good coach, wins the games to keep that coach on the team. Stafford did not do that. If McVay can be to Stafford what Gruden was to Gannon or Flores was to Plunkett, then great. Good coaches should improve players. The propaganda protecting the Detroit Stafford is based on lies and POOR BABY! Elite players stand on their own merits. All QBs have to win when the running game is not pounding it. All QBs have to win when their D has an off day. All QBs have to win when somebody drops a pass or misses a block or loses a fumble. The great ones do this. Stafford almost never has... so far. Does he have elite arm talent? Jeff George did too (this is an extreme example to prove it takes more than just talent) That Patrick Ramsey sure throws a pretty interception (meaning its not how you can throw its how you can win) - Sonny Jurgensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL-TwoWinsAway Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, SkippyX said: I think he is a good QB (top 10 at times, maybe top 14 now) who has not played on great teams. Wait. You just listed pages and pages of negative stats and even said that Stafford "has been a bad QB". You said that. Those words: "bad QB". Now it's "I think he's a good QB". The pages of stats seem to dispute that. What are you basing this opinion on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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