There hasn't been a Hall of Fame-worthy RB drafted in over a decade

[SkippyX]

1996 - Manning was not in the league.

1997 - Manning was not in the league

1998 - Manning was a 3-13 QB with a league leading 28 picks.

I'm gonna go with Terrell Davis here.

 

2001- Manning was 6-10 with 23 picks.

2002 - Manning was an 88.8 rated 10-6 QB.

2003 - Manning was first team all-pro, but in no way did he have a special for the ages type season. That was 2004, the next year.

• 2003 Manning was in a 4 way tie for 5th in AV in 2003, Holmes was number 1.

Manning put up 56 passing TDs and none rushing in 2002-03. Holmes had 51. You know its harder for the RB to score, right?

AV on profootball reference has Holmes at 17, a league leading 23, and a league leading 21 from 2001-03. That's 61

Manning is at 15,14,18. That's 47.  61 > 47 by 14, in case Jim Nantz and Peter King did not tell you how to math like they told you how to football.

 

Tony friggin Boselli? He peaked 1997-1999, which overlaps 2 years with the Davis peak (57).

His 1996-1998 AV was 11, 15, 16 for 42. Do I have to explain the relationship between 57 and 42 as well?

He was not even the best OT in 1999 (Orlando Pace was)

He was not the best O-lineman by AV in 1998, Randall McDaniel (20) was.

He beat out Ogden 15 to 14 in 1997.

 

Deion had an edge on Davis in 1996-1998 AV (AV was 60 to 57) but he had 9 picks in 3 years, the Cowboys went 26-22, and he missed 8 games.

You don't have to sell me on how good he was as a corner. I am just going with TD over Prime Time in this 3 year period.

If you are offended that I made that choice then have fun. 🤡

Maybe you want the 3 punt return TDs over SB MVP, League MVP, and 2k yards rushing?

 

It's really hard to argue Barry Sanders with children. They all believe he was unstoppable 24.7 and the bestest at all times and that his evil lineman were all terrible.

His team that helped him get to 6 playoff games in 10 years were all terrible players who did not belong in the league. Poor Barry!

He carried 11 guys on his back for every yard he ever earned. There is something about Detroit and extra excuses. 

Barry is an all-time great and he was even great from 1996-1998.

Barry scored 29 TDs and TD scored 57. TD also had about 260 more yards from scrimmage. Barry was 5.2 per carry vs 4.8, so that's something.

I'm not saying TD belonged on the all-90s team with Barry and Emmitt or even Thurman Thomas, just that he was the best from 1996-1998.

 

 

[SkippyX]

Holmes one weakness from 2001-2003 was that his team did not have playoff success.

• He only played in 1 game but he had 170+  rushing, 200+ from scrimmage and 2 TDs.
• The game is also well known as a close shootout where the refs pretended that Gonzo pushed off.
  • Troy Polamalu would be shocked to hear that Peyton's team got special playoff treatment.

So if someone has a player from 2001-2003 who was close to Holmes in the regular season and did a bunch in the playoffs while winning a title, then I could of course slide Holmes down to number 2.

• I know of no one on the Eagles (3 NFCCGs)
  • I love Weapon X but he was not best player in the league level and he was hurt in 2003
• I know of no one on the Patriots (Brady became MVP level regular season Brady starting in 2007)
  • Ty Law might be the closest and he had a 3 pick 2003 playoffs and the pick six on Warner in 2001
    • His 2002 was not the strongest though
• Derrick Brooks on Tampa is top 10 and in the discussion.
  • If you took Sapp's 1999, 2000, and 2002 regular seasons and skipped 2001, maybe?
• You need to skip 2002 for Orlando Pace as well.
• Willie Roaf was an absolute beast with Holmes and later with Larry Johnson
  • His peak was 2002-2004, and he missed 9 games in 2001

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by SkippyX

[Chargers]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

1996 - Manning was not in the league.

1997 - Manning was not in the league

1998 - Manning was a 3-13 QB with a league leading 28 picks.

I'm gonna go with Terrell Davis here.

 

2001- Manning was 6-10 with 23 picks.

2002 - Manning was an 88.8 rated 10-6 QB.

2003 - Manning was first team all-pro, but in no way did he have a special for the ages type season. That was 2004, the next year.

• 2003 Manning was in a 4 way tie for 5th in AV in 2003, Holmes was number 1.

Manning put up 56 passing TDs and none rushing in 2002-03. Holmes had 51. You know its harder for the RB to score, right?

AV on profootball reference has Holmes at 17, a league leading 23, and a league leading 21 from 2001-03. That's 61

Manning is at 15,14,18. That's 47.  61 > 47 by 14, in case Jim Nantz and Peter King did not tell you how to math like they told you how to football.

 

Tony friggin Boselli? He peaked 1997-1999, which overlaps 2 years with the Davis peak (57).

His 1996-1998 AV was 11, 15, 16 for 42. Do I have to explain the relationship between 57 and 42 as well?

He was not even the best OT in 1999 (Orlando Pace was)

He was not the best O-lineman by AV in 1998, Randall McDaniel (20) was.

He beat out Ogden 15 to 14 in 1997.

 

Deion had an edge on Davis in 1996-1998 AV (AV was 60 to 57) but he had 9 picks in 3 years, the Cowboys went 26-22, and he missed 8 games.

You don't have to sell me on how good he was as a corner. I am just going with TD over Prime Time in this 3 year period.

If you are offended that I made that choice then have fun. 🤡

Maybe you want the 3 punt return TDs over SB MVP, League MVP, and 2k yards rushing?

 

It's really hard to argue Barry Sanders with children. They all believe he was unstoppable 24.7 and the bestest at all times and that his evil lineman were all terrible.

His team that helped him get to 6 playoff games in 10 years were all terrible players who did not belong in the league. Poor Barry!

He carried 11 guys on his back for every yard he ever earned. There is something about Detroit and extra excuses. 

Barry is an all-time great and he was even great from 1996-1998.

Barry scored 29 TDs and TD scored 57. TD also had about 260 more yards from scrimmage. Barry was 5.2 per carry vs 4.8, so that's something.

I'm not saying TD belonged on the all-90s team with Barry and Emmitt or even Thurman Thomas, just that he was the best from 1996-1998.

 

 

So in 2000 you would have rather had Priest Holmes than Peyton Manning?

[SkippyX]

16 hours ago, Chargers said:

So in 2000 you would have rather had Priest Holmes than Peyton Manning?

That's not the point. Holmes was a better NFL player than Manning from 2001-2003.

Why is this so hard?

Of course you want the 15 year top 5 QB over the 3-5 year peak elite RB

 

One thing about those Chiefs teams. When the Eagles get a 1st and goal at the 7-9 yard lines then I am thinking FG with a hope for a low probability TD. When those Chiefs got a 1st and goal at the 9 they just gave it to Holmes 3 times and he scored. That's not easy. He was that dominant.

 

I'm not even saying its a travesty that Holmes is not in the Hall. I just think he's clearly across the line from HoVG to HoF. I respect that other people have a different view. If you think Holmes was not the best player from 2001-2003, but you think he was top 3 then he still belongs as a finalist with strong consideration. If you don't think he was top 5 from 2001-2003 its because you don't have a clue.

[SteelKing728]

I'd like to see McCaffrey, Barkley, Henry, Cook and Chubb stay consistently healthy from now until 2026 and I think this narrative changes.

[ThatJerkDave]

On 3/3/2021 at 10:40 PM, SkippyX said:

 

 

It's really hard to argue Barry Sanders with children. They all believe he was unstoppable 24.7 and the bestest at all times and that his evil lineman were all terrible.

His team that helped him get to 6 playoff games in 10 years were all terrible players who did not belong in the league. Poor Barry!

He carried 11 guys on his back for every yard he ever earned. There is something about Detroit and extra excuses. 

This so much.  There are certain guys that are deified beyond their greatness, which makes me just roll my eyes when people talk about them.  I have said it before, and it bears repeating:  Mike Tyson, in his prime, would never have stood a chance against, "MIKE TYSON IN HIS PRIME!!!"  

[SkippyX]

Excuse Baby is a thing. (QB analogy)

Rodgers was 15-1 on an awesome team in 2011 but they were 32nd in yards allowed on D so he had no chance!

Oh wait, Brady won his first SB with a D that was 24th in yards allowed. (and again in 2018 with the 21st ranked yardage D)

He made it to the Super Bowl with D's that were 31st and 29th in yards

He go to the AFCCG with Ds that were 26th and 25th in yards allowed.

 

I guess the reality is that Rodgers is inferior to Brady, who knew?

[SkippyX]

Tiki Barber's QB's

• Danny Kanell: 10-9-1 with a 67 rating
• Dave Brown: 3-3 with a 71.1 rating
• Kent Graham: 10-5 with a 73 rating
• Kerry Collins: 35-33 with a 78.4 rating
• Young Eli: 20-19 with a 73.2 rating
• Rehab Kurt Warner: 5-4 with an 86.5 rating

Tiki got to 7 playoff games in 10 years almost exactly like Barry (they won their NFCCG)

• I am not claiming that facing the 2000 Vikings vs. the 1991 Redskins is anything like the same level of difficulty

 

Eric Dickerson's QB's

• Vince Ferragamo : 10-9 with a 68.7 rating
• Jeff Kemp: 9-5 with a 75.5 rating
• Jim Everett : 8-8 with a 68.2 rating
• Chris Chandler:  10-6 with a 66.2 rating
• Gary Hogeboom: 0-1 with a 77.7 rating
• Jack Trudeau: 18-18 with a 68.4 rating
• Jeff George: 14-35 with a 72 rating

Dickerson was ALSO in 7 playoff games in 10 years of LA and Indy

You can look at his Raiders and Falcons seasons at the end if you want but its ugly

 

But only Barry ever had mediocre to bad QB play on his team!

 

[SkippyX]

OJ Simpson QBs:

• Jack Kemp: 7-15 with a 51.5 rating
• Dan Darragh: 1-10 with a 30.4 rating
• James Harris: 0-3 with a 51.0 rating
• Leo Hart: 0-1 with a 10.6 rating
• Dennis Shaw: 8-27-2 with a 57.1 rating
• Joe Fergeuon: 31-32 with a 66.6 rating
• Gary Marangi : 0-7 with a 30.8 rating

[Malik]

12 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Tiki Barber's QB's

• Danny Kanell: 10-9-1 with a 67 rating
• Dave Brown: 3-3 with a 71.1 rating
• Kent Graham: 10-5 with a 73 rating
• Kerry Collins: 35-33 with a 78.4 rating
• Young Eli: 20-19 with a 73.2 rating
• Rehab Kurt Warner: 5-4 with an 86.5 rating

Tiki got to 7 playoff games in 10 years almost exactly like Barry (they won their NFCCG)

• I am not claiming that facing the 2000 Vikings vs. the 1991 Redskins is anything like the same level of difficulty

 

Eric Dickerson's QB's

• Vince Ferragamo : 10-9 with a 68.7 rating
• Jeff Kemp: 9-5 with a 75.5 rating
• Jim Everett : 8-8 with a 68.2 rating
• Chris Chandler:  10-6 with a 66.2 rating
• Gary Hogeboom: 0-1 with a 77.7 rating
• Jack Trudeau: 18-18 with a 68.4 rating
• Jeff George: 14-35 with a 72 rating

Dickerson was ALSO in 7 playoff games in 10 years of LA and Indy

You can look at his Raiders and Falcons seasons at the end if you want but its ugly

 

But only Barry ever had mediocre to bad QB play on his team!

 

Who is arguing that Barry is the only great RB to have had mediocre QB play? The vast majority of Hall of Fame QBs had mediocre QB play. Terrell Davis did have several Hall of Fame teammates on the offensive end alone as well as all-pro and pro bowl linemen who were great before and after him though

[43M]

13 hours ago, SkippyX said:

But only Barry ever had mediocre to bad QB play on his team!

Ive agreed with numerous points youve made here, but this is a complete strawman argument.   Ive literally never seen anyone say that.   

 

[Mr Bad Example]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:49 PM, Starless said:

Priest Holmes had a more productive career than Davis. Do you feel the same about him?

I can see the argument against Holmes being "if he was so great, where was the impact in the first half of his career?" - first 4 yrs were 0, squeaking over 1000, and 2 500 yd seasons. So that's where he differs from the instant impact of Terrell Davis, who came in at a 1200 yds/season pace and went UP from there (and whose career has been discussed elsewhere in the thread). 

However, I think my platonic ideal of a "late bloomer" RB career is probably OJ Simpson, where for whatever reason he just didn't have the opportunity in his first 3 seasons and was not particularly impressive, before the team DID commit to him and he rattled off 5 All-Pro season. I think this is where Holmes would fit, because he was an All-Pro for 3 straight seasons and on pace for that in '04 (if you double his stats or sub in what Blaylock/Johnson did in his place, he finishes with more rushing yds, scrimmage yds, and tds than the #2 in any of those categories). 

I tend to lean more towards rewarding peak performance than compiling when I'm assessing HoF, so based on 4 yrs as one of the top 2, if not the top, RB in the league that was cut short by injury, I think you can say Holmes probably has a decent case for the HoF. What damages him most is his nonexistent first season and he didn't get the opportunity to have his "padding" years, where he's maybe a top 10 RB and still getting opportunities and bumping up his career stats - if he had finished out his '04 and hung around at JAG/deluxe 3rd down back production for 3 or 4 yrs, he's at 11k rushing and pushing 5k receiving with 100 tds, which probably gets him into the Hall without debate. 

[Jakuvious]

On 3/3/2021 at 4:00 AM, samsel23 said:

Don’t get me wrong,  I love priest.  
 

But he ran behind 2 Hall of Famers,  along with another Top 3-5 G at the time.  Plus Wiegmann and Tait were good.   I’ve never thought Priest should be in the Hall.     He was a good back,  that ran behind one the greatest lines.  
Our offense was always top notch those years, mainly because the OL dominated everyone.    

If any of the too short of a career Chief RBs belong in the hall of fame, it's Jamaal Charles, not Priest. Priest was a very good player, but I'm not sure you could imagine a better supporting cast, and era, for a RB to be productive, than what we had in the early 2000s. Just a perfect storm of it being the peak of workhorse backs and blocking FBs, and him being surrounded by some of the best trench play ever, from the line to the TEs to Tony Richardson to the scheme. Jason Dunn might have been a better run blocker than anyone on some of those 2010ish Chiefs teams.

Charles came on right when our offensive roster and coaching went to crap, right around when teams were moving on from the 300+ carry workhorse backs, and he only really got two years to benefit from Andy Reid and the stability of Alex Smith, and still he only came up about 1000 yards from scrimmage short of Holmes, despite like 400 fewer touches.

Charles was better than Holmes, just far less lucky.

[Malik]

On 3/7/2021 at 3:18 PM, Jakuvious said:

If any of the too short of a career Chief RBs belong in the hall of fame, it's Jamaal Charles, not Priest. Priest was a very good player, but I'm not sure you could imagine a better supporting cast, and era, for a RB to be productive, than what we had in the early 2000s. Just a perfect storm of it being the peak of workhorse backs and blocking FBs, and him being surrounded by some of the best trench play ever, from the line to the TEs to Tony Richardson to the scheme. Jason Dunn might have been a better run blocker than anyone on some of those 2010ish Chiefs teams.

Charles came on right when our offensive roster and coaching went to crap, right around when teams were moving on from the 300+ carry workhorse backs, and he only really got two years to benefit from Andy Reid and the stability of Alex Smith, and still he only came up about 1000 yards from scrimmage short of Holmes, despite like 400 fewer touches.

Charles was better than Holmes, just far less lucky.

Jamaal is probably the ideal modern day RB honestly. A guy who can get you 1400+ yards from scrimmage without having to build your entire offense around him in order for him to be successful

[BayRaider]

Henry isn’t far off. Super Bowl ring and one more 1800 rush yard season and he’d be in. Without a Super Bowl, probably needs another four monster years all being over 1500 yards rushing with at least one being 1800+.