Drew Brees is not a top 10 QB of all time. Change my mind.

[MookieMonstah]

1 hour ago, TENINCH said:

I'm a Vikings fan

 

I despise the Saints

I don't like New Orleans

I can't stand Louisiana

I hate Sean Payton

I hate Drew Brees

I literally LOATHE Drew Brees

I literally LOATHE Sean Payton

I despise everything about Drew Brees.

I despise Alvin Kamara for stealing Dalvin Cook's All Pro and talking ish about Minnesota

I despise them because they are cheaters

 

I'd rank him somewhere from 5th to 8th. It will be short lived though due the great QB's coming up like Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers. Then you have the younger guys following behind them like Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Deshaun Watson who will likely be better than Brees.

 

Cheaters lol. Vikings fans really will never get over it. You had your redemption, move on. Hitting a QB late is dirty but it’s not cheating.

[TENINCH]

5 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Cheaters lol. Vikings fans really will never get over it. You had your redemption, move on. Hitting a QB late is dirty but it’s not cheating.

I'm not over Super Bowls that we lost that I wasn't even alive yet to see!

Also: I hate you too ☺️

Edited March 15, 2021 by TENINCH

[MookieMonstah]

5 minutes ago, TENINCH said:

I'm not over Super Bowls that we lost that I wasn't even alive yet to see!

Also: I hate you too ☺️

Hey! You don’t say that! 

[TENINCH]

Just now, MookieMonstah said:

Hey! You don’t say that! 

Become a Vikings fan. We'll be best friends

[Tk3]

25 minutes ago, Dome said:

My point was that he’s getting called a stat padder, even though he was down in the 4th just as much if not more than anyone else.

So you agree with me that Brees was behind a lot in the 4th?

Yep

I agree that Brees is a stat padder - but not to the extent that you throw away his achievements. If anything, I think you can criticize the fact that his numbers are bloated from 20 seasons while many of his peers are in the ~15 season range

 

I think you comfortably put Brady, Manning, Montana ahead of him. Assuming he has a couple more top tier seasons, Rodgers is going to comfortably land ahead of him. I can't speak too much of the Johnny U of it all, but I'll put him ahead based on MVPs and rings

After those 5.. I think its a cluster with Brees/Elway/Marino/Young/Favre(I guess. I've never gotten the Favre hype. Too much bad to offset the good to put him in my top 10). Fran fits in there somewhere too, but idk how to properly evaluate eras like that

I just don't see an argument of Brees not being in that 4-9 range behind the big 3

[Uncle Buck]

30 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

Cheaters lol. Vikings fans really will never get over it. You had your redemption, move on. Hitting a QB late is dirty but it’s not cheating.

While it was satisfying knocking them out of the playoffs a couple of times, that is hardly redemption for being cheated out of the franchise's first Super Bowl.  It's going to take a LOT more than a couple of playoff wins to make up for that.  Fortunately, I'm not a Vikings fan anymore, so I'm trying to work through it with my therapist.  (hahha, not really).

[MookieMonstah]

19 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

While it was satisfying knocking them out of the playoffs a couple of times, that is hardly redemption for being cheated out of the franchise's first Super Bowl.  It's going to take a LOT more than a couple of playoff wins to make up for that.  Fortunately, I'm not a Vikings fan anymore, so I'm trying to work through it with my therapist.  (hahha, not really).

But, you didn't get cheated out of anything. Hitting the QB late isn't cheating. Dirty? Sure. The Saints gained zero competitive advantage from rewarding guys for big hits, injured players, etc. Is it deplorable? Horrible? Dirty? Yes, but its not cheating.

In reality the Vikings lost because they had FIVE turnovers. Hard to win a playoff game against a good team with five turnovers. Vikings fans gotta get over it. I mean, you guys complain about this more than Saints fans complain about the Rams blown call and that is actually getting robbed of a SB appearance lol

Edited March 15, 2021 by MookieMonstah

[Uncle Buck]

1 minute ago, MookieMonstah said:

But, you didn't get cheated out of anything. Hitting the QB late isn't cheating. Dirty? Sure. The Saints gained zero competitive advantage from rewarding guys for big hits, injured players, etc. Is it deplorable? Horrible? Dirty? Yes, but its not cheating.

In reality the Vikings lost because they had FIVE turnovers. Hard to win a playoff game against a good team with five turnovers. Vikings fans gotta get over it. I mean, you guys complain about this more than Saints fans complain about the Rams blown call and that is actually getting robbed of a SB appearance lol

You're a cool guy, Mookie, but I've got to respectfully disagree.  In spite of the five turnovers, the Vikings outgained them on offense by practically a 2 to 1 margin.  I admit that the turnovers were a huge thing, the but would Favre have been more likely to run for the yards on that last INT if his ankle wasn't half broken?  I was shocked that he was even able to come back into the game at all at that point. 

Anyway, no point in rehashing it.  Saints fans don't like us to use the word "cheating."  I forgot about that.  I don't want to keep opening up an old wound with them by calling it cheating.  We can call it something else, but whatever it was, it will always be a part of NFL playoff history that will go down in infamy, IMO.

[MookieMonstah]

13 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

You're a cool guy, Mookie, but I've got to respectfully disagree.  In spite of the five turnovers, the Vikings outgained them on offense by practically a 2 to 1 margin.  I admit that the turnovers were a huge thing, the but would Favre have been more likely to run for the yards on that last INT if his ankle wasn't half broken?  I was shocked that he was even able to come back into the game at all at that point. 

Anyway, no point in rehashing it.  Saints fans don't like us to use the word "cheating."  I forgot about that.  I don't want to keep opening up an old wound with them by calling it cheating.  We can call it something else, but whatever it was, it will always be a part of NFL playoff history that will go down in infamy, IMO.

You had a bunch of great drives...That ended in turnovers and not points. I mean Drew Brees got hit late and broke his ribs. Thats certainly not cheating. I think Vikings fans just want someone to blame instead of the team, the Vikings had costly turnovers. I'd be interested to see teams records in the playoffs when they have 4+ turnovers, I'm going to guess its not very good. 

I just don't think it qualifies as cheating. The Saints gained zero competitive advantage. Every DL wants to hit the QB, its their job. Was the paying guys bonuses for hurting guys super dirty and gross? Yessir, but as many coaches and players have said...This is something every team was doing. Gregg Williams is just the idiot dumb enough to make a freaking power point about it. The Vikings lost because they had 5 turnovers in an NFCCG, not because the Saints DL hit Favre late. 

Quote

Here are the records of playoff teams from 2010-2019 when they committed zero, one, two, three or four-plus turnovers in a post-season game:

Turnovers in a playoff game, Record
Zero: 38-20 .655
One: 43-30 .589
Two: 24-28 .462
Three: 3-20 .130
Four or more: 2-12 .143

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by MookieMonstah
Found the stat.

[childofpudding]

Ahead of Favre and Elway for sure. In terms of his contemporaries, he's not far behind Brady and Manning. He's clearly behind them but it's not a huge gap.

[Asciimo]

42 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

You had a bunch of great drives...That ended in turnovers and not points. I mean Drew Brees got hit late and broke his ribs. Thats certainly not cheating. I think Vikings fans just want someone to blame instead of the team, the Vikings had costly turnovers. I'd be interested to see teams records in the playoffs when they have 4+ turnovers, I'm going to guess its not very good. 

I just don't think it qualifies as cheating. The Saints gained zero competitive advantage. Every DL wants to hit the QB, its their job. Was the paying guys bonuses for hurting guys super dirty and gross? Yessir, but as many coaches and players have said...This is something every team was doing. Gregg Williams is just the idiot dumb enough to make a freaking power point about it. The Vikings lost because they had 5 turnovers in an NFCCG, not because the Saints DL hit Favre late. 

 

zero competitive advantage.. what? then why do you think they did it. for fun?

[Asciimo]

38 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

Ahead of Favre and Elway for sure. In terms of his contemporaries, he's not far behind Brady and Manning. He's clearly behind them but it's not a huge gap.

not even close dude. brees has.. count 'em. 0 mvps. 0. fewer than nearly every QB we've discussed in this thread. how can someone be "not far behind brady and manning" with 1 ring and 0 mvps. ludicrous.

[childofpudding]

24 minutes ago, Asciimo said:

not even close dude. brees has.. count 'em. 0 mvps. 0. fewer than nearly every QB we've discussed in this thread. how can someone be "not far behind brady and manning" with 1 ring and 0 mvps. ludicrous.

MVP is a popularity award that defaulted to Manning for several years even when it was questionable whether he deserved it. Brees probably should have won it in 2009, for example. Brees led the league in passing yards 7x, TDs 4x and passer rating 2x. He was also a far better playoff performer than Manning, and arguably had lesser offensive targets. And he didn't have the kind of top defenses that Brady enjoyed on the other side of the ball. Clearly behind the two of them, yes. But not by that much.

[Dome]

58 minutes ago, Asciimo said:

zero competitive advantage.. what? then why do you think they did it. for fun?

Partly for fun, for sure. Maybe even mostly for fun.

If numerous NFL sources are to believed, this type of thing was happening in most NFL locker rooms, to a lesser extent. The Saints incorporated the payouts, reward speeches, etc into the team meetings, where I think most other teams kept things on the down-low between players where coaches can plead ignorance.

There is a team camaraderie when you're betting against your friends/teammates, taking their money, or having to pay up when it's your turn.  I bet the fun they had was a huge part of it, especially if you believe most NFL locker rooms had player-funded pools like this. The competitive advantage is lost when you hear players and former players talk about how this wasn't uncommon in NFL locker rooms, and it does make me think it's something guys are doing for fun with their "fun money." Something to remember is that only the most heinous of the payouts are discussed, because they're the most troubling. Guys got paid from the pool for breaking up passes, tackles for losses, forcing fumbles, etc. 

Gross and intolerable? Yes. Not arguing the punishment. But I don't think the competitive advantage angle has ever held much water, other than maybe a way for veteran players to pump up UDFA and guys on rookie deals with a chance to win some walking around cash. Another thing to consider is that the payouts didn't even cover the cost of a single fine.

 

A huge line the Saints crossed was allowing a non-player (Saints marketing dude) pitch in money to the pool. But to me that feels like a guy who isn't really a team "insider" getting caught up in everything and feeling really freaking cool throwing money into the pool with the big boys... It seems like that far more than it feels like a team attempting to skirt a salary cap for a competitive advantage. Others might see things differently. 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Dome

[lancerman]

1. Brady

2. Montana

3. Manning

4. Unitas

5. Marino

6.Farve

7. Rodgers

8. Graham

9. Young

I have very little issue putting those 9 above Brees. The question is whether he beats our Staubach/Elway/Baugh/Starr/Tarkenton/Luckman for that last spot. To me Starr would have first dibs.