The Mega Offseason Workout/OTA/Training Camp Thread

[Darbsk]

3 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think here the issue was not only for not being paid a lot but the fact that the offensive line was actually aging. In Rodney Hudson run blocking had deteriorated. It was one of those things where you had to think about a year from now would you be able to get a third round pick for Hudson a year from now? Probably not. He was only going to get worse and on top of that his contract made it impossible to cut him. 
 

Not saying I was jumping for joy when it happened but I at the very least understand the perspective.

I don't really agree with this slant to be frank. I see a lot of talk about Hudson getting older, his run blocking falling off and so on but I didn't see that on the field if I'm honest. Hudson was our best OL player IMO, maybe our best or second best player after Waller, his pass blocking was the best in the NFL for a centre and I thought his run blocking was good though not elite. He was special at reading blitzes, making adjustments and just being the brains of the OL so I don't really buy the 'well he was getting old and his run blocking was dropping off'  because that's not what I actually saw! I have a feeling people are just saying this to justify the trade somehow....... I saw our run blocking fall off because Brown went AWOL, Jackson struggle and Incognito get injured, I wouldn't ascribe much to Hudson who kept the line together and lead the ever changing lineup and was really the glue that kept it all together. Without Hudson lady year I dread to think what would gave happened......

I totally get that if we traded him in two years time or whenever he would be worth less than now, of course that makes sense but it just seems a very unessessary risk. Trent Brown was overpaid and lazy and needed to be got rid of to set an example, totally agree with that. Jackson was overpaid for what he was producing, even though he'd played injured and I really liked and respected him that was probably the right decision as we could get comparable play at a significantly less cost.

Of course, we all hope for similar level OC play for a lot less cost but that seems awfully optimistic. Plus, we are actually paying him too this year so it's like we just bought a draft pick and the amount has to be figured into the replacement centres cost. Basically, we're paying MORE this year for James than we would have for Hudson, that seems insane.

If we want to trim the fat off the roster why not cut guys who are just not making a difference. We're so worried about what we're paying Hudson yet we throw 4 million at the cadaver of Jason Witten or pay our #2 and #3 RBs 11 million or pay our two backup DEs 17 million or pay our backup QB twice what he's worth ..........this seems insane, Hudson was one player actually worth the money 🤔

Edited August 24, 2021 by Darbsk

[Jeremy408]

13 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I don't really agree with this slant to be frank. I see a lot of talk about Hudson getting older, his run blocking falling off and so on but I didn't see that on the field if I'm honest. Hudson was our best OL player IMO, maybe our best or second best player after Waller, his pass blocking was the best in the NFL for a centre and I thought his run blocking was good though not elite. He was special at reading blitzes, making adjustments and just being the brains of the OL so I don't really buy the 'well he was getting old and his run blocking was dropping off'  because that's not what I actually saw! I have a feeling people are just saying this to justify the trade somehow....... I saw our run blocking fall off because Brown went AWOL, Jackson struggle and Incognito get injured, I wouldn't ascribe much to Hudson who kept the line together and lead the ever changing lineup and was really the glue that kept it all together.

OK let me start by saying  this was my initial reaction too before I started actually considering a couple of things: 

1.  Denzel good was actually a good run blocker so to lose incognito it’s not as big of a deal as you would think. Denzelle Good was actually a better run blocker than Gabe Jackson.
 

2. I saw this 

Watch for yourself how Rodney Hudson is as a run blocker in the 2020 as opposed to his run blocking.  I’m not even talking about just the plays that highlight him. I’m talking about every run play shown of him in a 2020 game. 

13 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Basically, we're paying MORE this year for James than we would have for Hudson, that seems insane.

This is actually just not true

André James get paid…

2.5 mil in 2021(he can be cut after this year if he doesn’t pan out)

The most he can make is 3.4mil in 2022(1.9 million is the base)

3.4mil in 2023(assuming he still on the team by 2023 we’ll know how good he is)

By contrast this is how much Rodney Hudson gets paid

2.8mil in 2021(due to the restructure which sounds good until you realize..)..

12 mil in 2022(And you can’t cut him if he regresses at all)

11 mill in 2023(bye then he will be 34 and he still can’t cut him and no one’s going to trade a third round pick for a 34-year-old so you’re going to have to settle for less at this point)

so if it’s an issue of money this one is a no-brainer.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Jeremy408

[reddevil]

4 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I don't really agree with this slant to be frank. I see a lot of talk about Hudson getting older, his run blocking falling off and so on but I didn't see that on the field if I'm honest. Hudson was our best OL player IMO, maybe our best or second best player after Waller, his pass blocking was the best in the NFL for a centre and I thought his run blocking was good though not elite. He was special at reading blitzes, making adjustments and just being the brains of the OL so I don't really buy the 'well he was getting old and his run blocking was dropping off'  because that's not what I actually saw! I have a feeling people are just saying this to justify the trade somehow....... I saw our run blocking fall off because Brown went AWOL, Jackson struggle and Incognito get injured, I wouldn't ascribe much to Hudson who kept the line together and lead the ever changing lineup and was really the glue that kept it all together. Without Hudson lady year I dread to think what would gave happened......

I totally get that if we traded him in two years time or whenever he would be worth less than now, of course that makes sense but it just seems a very unessessary risk. Trent Brown was overpaid and lazy and needed to be got rid of to set an example, totally agree with that. Jackson was overpaid for what he was producing, even though he'd played injured and I really liked and respected him that was probably the right decision as we could get comparable play at a significantly less cost.

Of course, we all hope for similar level OC play for a lot less cost but that seems awfully optimistic. Plus, we are actually paying him too this year so it's like we just bought a draft pick and the amount has to be figured into the replacement centres cost. Basically, we're paying MORE this year for James than we would have for Hudson, that seems insane.

If we want to trim the fat off the roster why not cut guys who are just not making a difference. We're so worried about what we're paying Hudson yet we throw 4 million at the cadaver of Jason Witten or pay our #2 and #3 RBs 11 million or pay our two backup DEs 17 million or pay our backup QB twice what he's worth ..........this seems insane, Hudson was one player actually worth the money 🤔

Totally agree. Unless something genuinely went on behind the scenes, trading Hudson only makes us weaker from a football and a locker room standpoint. If James comes good, then it might not be a total calamity, but given it didn’t actually help our cap situation, it is still a real head scratcher to me. And given the fact that we knew we would have to draft a RT with our 1st round pick, it just added another unnecessary question mark going into what is a make or break season.

[G]

On 8/21/2021 at 4:23 PM, NCOUGHMAN said:

Quick release for carr = ignore wrs or anything past 10 yrds

As a Carr'stan' I approve this message... lol

[G]

As far as our Oline...Hudson I'd keep but once we asked people to take pay cuts it pissed him off and I'm good with getting a 3rd round pick out of it. The timing of Jackson and especially Brown is what I didn't like. Before the Draft it just makes a glaring need lite up like King. So other teams move up but you can also trade the player after the pick. We took Leatherwood. Well he could replace Brown or Jackson so teams that want one of them might make a better offer not knowing which one were replacing. Signing James to an extension before seeing enough action isn't popular but may work out extremely well if we get some good play and growth. Would rather waited a few games like Waller and then locked him up but...Need to have stability moving forward so I get it. Loved locking Miller down to an extension because we could have moved him to RT and been fine if we drafted a LT. Once paid, I doubt the players care unless the struggle but he played RT before so probably even better but I'm glad to know we have some guys who can play other positions. 

[NYRaider]

14 hours ago, Jeremy408 said:

I think here the issue was not only for not being paid a lot but the fact that the offensive line was actually aging. In Rodney Hudson run blocking had deteriorated. It was one of those things where you had to think about a year from now would you be able to get a third round pick for Hudson a year from now? Probably not. He was only going to get worse and on top of that his contract made it impossible to cut him. 
 

Not saying I was jumping for joy when it happened but I at the very least understand the perspective.

We had zero plans of moving on from Rodney Hudson, he demanded a trade. He had allowed like 1 sack in his last 3,000 pass blocking reps and is an All-Pro level player. Andre James has 1 start in his career and his PFF grade during that game was 1.9/100, lol. 

[Jeremy408]

9 hours ago, reddevil said:

Totally agree. Unless something genuinely went on behind the scenes, trading Hudson only makes us weaker from a football and a locker room standpoint. If James comes good, then it might not be a total calamity, but given it didn’t actually help our cap situation, it is still a real head scratcher to me. And given the fact that we knew we would have to draft a RT with our 1st round pick, it just added another unnecessary question mark going into what is a make or break season.

He didn’t help with Situation this year but if you actually understand the cap you understand that next year one of the reasons why we will have $50 million is because we’re not on the books anymore for him. That’s a very important piece of this whole thing.
 

He can’t be cut for another two years without surrendering dad money so the idea was we might as well get a third round pick for him while people still value him highly because as he gets older he won’t be valued at third round pick but you also can’t move on from him so you’ll end up being stuck in this weird purgatory situation

[NYRaider]

30 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

He didn’t help with Situation this year but if you actually understand the cap you understand that next year one of the reasons why we will have $50 million is because we’re not on the books anymore for him. That’s a very important piece of this whole thing.

But it's more or less a make or break year for Derek Carr and we're going to have an extremely inexperienced offensive line, especially if Richie can't stay healthy. When has letting good players go due to cap implications worked in our favor? We traded Mack and Cooper for the same reason, lol. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by NYRaider

[Jeremy408]

9 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

But it's more or less a make or break year for Derek Carr and we're going to have an extremely inexperienced offensive line, especially if Richie can't stay healthy. When has letting good players go due to cap implications worked in our favor? We traded Mack and Cooper for the same reason, lol. 

Depends what you define as works in your favor.

[NYRaider]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Depends what you define as works in your favor.

Having a team with difference makers at key positions that's capable of making the playoffs. 

[Jeremy408]

3 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Having a team with difference makers at key positions that's capable of making the playoffs. 

That’s a tall order. The Bears don’t even have that. They just had the one year where the Packers weren’t themselves(2018) and a year that where they have the same record as us but play in the NFC so that means playoffs. 

Remember something both teams have in common is neither teams have won a playoff game since the trade

 

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

That’s a tall order. The Bears don’t even have that. They just had the one year where the Packers weren’t themselves(2018) and a year that where they have the same record as us but play in the NFC so that means playoffs. 

Remember something both teams have in common is neither teams have won a playoff game since the trade

You can make a strong case that Rodney Hudson, Amari Cooper, and Khalil Mack were our 3 best players when Gruden inherited the team and we traded them away for players that haven't really done anything to help the team. And the cap space that we saved not paying them has largely been used on guys that have been massive misses. 

[Turnobili]

beat writers have been silent today. was there no practice? interviews?

[agarcia34]

Ateman, Stills and Lee have been cut. 
 

Had some hope Stills could land on the PA but dosent look likely. Cutting Lee when you’re already short on LB

Edited August 24, 2021 by agarcia34

[Humble_Beast]

didn't Ateman just catch a TD lol. these preseason games mean nothing 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Humble_Beast