Week 4: Steelers @ Lambeau Field

[mikebpackfan]

15 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Steelers defense is below average so far this year, not sure how strong they actually are. They are ranked 18th compared to 19th for San Fran. 

Yeah, this and Big Ben sucking have me feeling confident.  But, without having followed them super close over the last decade, they have seemed like they were down-and-out several times, only to come back and have a nice stretch.  So, I am pretty cautious with my optimism.  Just like I was cautious with my pessimism last week.

[AlexGreen#20]

Let's figure out if this OL can hang

[PackFiend]

16 hours ago, Old Guy said:

How in the H-E Double Hockey Sticks did Kevin King go from missing the 49ers game due to illness to missing practice due to a concussion today? This guy smh. 

 

 

 

Because he had concussion like symptoms hence the illness that kept him out Sunday. The pass breakup right before the half against Detroit, he gets up slowly and then looks to suddenly stumble a few steps backwards before finding his footing again. Think he either actually hit his head on the ground on this play based on his reaction as he goes to make the move to get up or he was already concussed before this.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by PackFiend

[Steeler Hitman]

On 9/27/2021 at 3:16 PM, LLcheesehead12 said:

Greetings Packers Nation from Steelers Nation. I like to read our opponents opinions about the game and how they view our team. I will offer some fair commentary from the Steelers standpoint to a few of your comments. I will start by saying that I don't think we (Steelers) have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. My fandom heart says yes we can, but my experience of being a player, coach, and follower of the Steelers since 1971 no way! 

 

Lol, now this one is one to bookmark

Agreed. Don't know if that was a serious prediction or most likely being facetious.  As a Steelers fan, "Oh yeah of little faith!"(and I am including myself) LOL

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On a serious note, the Steelers have long been a team that plays with short memory and never been one to be intimidated by anyone.  That mentality does remain unchanged even today, and in a week to week league that even saw them beat a good Buffalo team week 1, yes they need to be taken seriously.

This is typically true, but I have seen some disturbing trends for the past several years that point to a lack of internal (players) leadership. This is a franchise that had Jack Lambert and Mean Joe Green in the 70's.  In the 1980's it was Mike Merriweather then Rod Woodson and Dermonti Dawson in the late 80's into early 90's.  Then they had Greg Lloyd and Kevin Green in the 90's. They had Hines Ward, Joey Porter, and Jerome Bettis in the early 200's. That void has been there since. While Ben has matured tremendously over the past few years, he is not and no one else has displayed that intense leader as our rival Baltimore Ravens had in Ray Lewis.  There is a void there. How do you think Lambert, Green, Lloyd, Dirt Dawson, Woodson, or Porter would have handled someone calling the team soft (true or not)? This is something with the Steelers that is between their ears and 6" below their chins! the toughness mentality is not the same. Tradition and the standard are there, but the executioners of that are not necessarily. I think this is much more than just the coaches. 

But that said, this is one game I've had circled on the calendar because the Steelers were well overdue to quit winning the lottery against us.  Think about it.  They've managed to go 11 years without facing Rodgers having not played against him since Superbowl 45.  It's virtually unheard of even for AFC teams you only play every 4 years to get out of playing against an elite QB twice due to injury.

I don't think we were ever really happy about not playing against Aaron Rogers. This team has a tendency to play down to opponents/level of competition. Rogers would have brought the best out in them. They hyped up Brett Hundley in a game that they played poorly enough to lose to him and the Packers. Brett Hundley is no where near Rogers on his worst days. We made Hundley look like the future for someteam that day.

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And ... in both 2013 and 2017 when Rodgers didn't play, the offense still scored 31 and 28 points respectively, and we had the worst backup QB ever in one of those.  No way we would have lost either of those 2 games if Rodgers had been playing.

Hard to say because I honestly believe the Steelers team would have been more hyped to play the Packers especially in 2013 after losing the SB in 2010. You guys had the hot up and coming QB commodity in Matt Flynn. We took you guys pretty serious then even without Rogers. Steelers offense put up 38 and probably should have put up 45 or 48 that game. 

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Steelers will not get out of playing Rodgers this time and will be dead meat because of it.  Aside from our superbowl XLV win against them, they haven't lost to us in the regular season since 1995, and that's going end this Sunday I'm calling.

This is a team that lost to Ryan Finley late last year and seems to be trending downward and not upward. I don't think it matters much whether it is Rogers or any other QB with a pulse and a halfway decent understanding of the playbook.

 

On 9/27/2021 at 12:14 PM, Joe said:

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Nothing personal and I'm not trying to insult them, but I watched the Pittsburgh game yesterday and it felt like they played with no heart whatsoever.

It is hard to argue that point as a Steelers fan. I can see the fire in coach Tomlin's face and tone trying to remain cool. But Tyler Boyd and former Steelers Mike Hilton made comments about heart  and thus far I have not heard a peep from a player. last year the media called the OL soft. Nothing was said or more importantly done to send a message you may think that, but you better dang well think twice about saying it! And if you do, know there will be serious consequences and repercussions that may include a concussion to you! I am not advocating violence, but I think you know what I mean! The truth id the passion does not seem to be there with some players. even after losing to the browns last year one of our players said, "The Chiefs will get you next week!" Are you $%$#@ kidding me! What happened to I will see your @rses next year. And you better have your helmet strapped tight because I am coming! That is Steelers football and mentality!

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It seemed as if the rookies and second/third string guys were the only players putting effort into it. Roethlisberger is pretty much washed up at this point and they couldn't run block to save their life. It was like they were going through the motions on both sides of the ball.

Interesting. I have argued that Big Ben has not been the root cause of the offenses issues. I was called a Big Ben fanboy by some in the group. Losing brings out a lot of emotions. It is still football. If you don't block and tackle you can't win. Ben has little blocking and yes looked a bit gun shy in the pocket. I don't think that was fear of the game, but further hurting his ribs. He has rib injuries. As a former football player, and martial arts combatant, I have had rib injuries. It hurts just to breath. Imagine throwing, moving, getting hit, and dare I say falling on the injured ribs. Yes it will affect your game. Get him some consistent blocking and he could get comfortable and confident in the pocket. That is one element that is missing and is  affecting both the OL play and Ben's success. Just my opinion. 

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I will say this, however: Najee Harris got a ton of yardage on short screen passes despite dropping a couple of bad ones at the end. He actually led the team in receiving yards as well. Obviously, we'll have to keep an eye on that.

He also had three or four decent runs hat went for more than 8 yards that got called back for stupid penalties. You can't build cohesion, consistency or have success with that. It is almost self-deflating. You do something right and then it comes back. This offensive team is not good enough to consistently overcome negative down in distance. They did a few times against the Bengals, but I think when they got into the pattern of I did something right and now instead of first and ten again it is first, second, or third and 20. This is where I believe some of the air was let out of some of the offensive players. An indomitable spirit is much easier to describe or define than to act on and live on! This team has beaten itself in many instances more than the Bengals and Raiders (no disrespect to either for their effort and wins). 

 

On 9/28/2021 at 11:12 PM, FAH1223 said:

Steelers might play better on the road. They did come back and beat the Bills @ BUF. 

Steelers have lost their last three home games and four of the past five only beating the Colts last year and losing to the WFT and Browns last year and the Raiders, and Bengals this year.

First game of the year. the starters were well rested on defense. Fortunately the special teams made a play and the offense semi came to life in the second half. However, the damage was done. The defense was on the field way too long in all three games. Difference with raiders and Bengals were many of the defensive starters were hurt and the defense has been worn down in all three games. You can't keep giving offenses chances to score. Steelers offense goes three and out and the Bills, Raiders and Bengals offenses would get a few first downs, flip the field, and then the Steelers offense lays an egg for another three and out. Situational football at its best for our opponents.  Give the Steelers the ball opening KO. They are going to wet the bed. They have been for the past three seasons. This offense has only scored a handful of times on an opening drive and has only scored two TD's in the past 25 or so games in their opening offensive drives. The Titans last year, and I can't remember before that off the top of my head. 

15 hours ago, incognito_man said:

Steelers defense is below average so far this year, not sure how strong they actually are. They are ranked 18th compared to 19th for San Fran. 

We will agree to disagree on this one. The Steelers defense has kept this team from being blown out in every game. They held a Bills team who is lighting everyone else up with 30 and 40 points a game to 16 points. What is impressive is that the Bills controlled the game because the offense didn't come to the stadium until the third quarter. They were down 10 -0 at the half. No excuses, but they have been on the field too much and they are a walking wounded group.  Tuitt and Tyson are on IR, Watt and Highsmith were out versus the Bengals. Haden, Watt and Tyson  (both got hurt early) and Bush were out versus the Raiders. The Steelers were without five of their defensive starters against the Raiders. That is half the starting defense.  You can't get hurt on the sideline typically (except for maybe missing your mouth and squirting Gatorade in your eye. 😂 Although the Raiders put up 26, it was tough sledding. Different game with some offense and healthy players (not saying they win with that inept OL and offense), but the game is even closer. The Steelers offense gift wrapped 10 or 14 points to the Bengals. take those away and it is a different game situationally. Lat in the fourth the Bengals would be forced to put the gas on to score or the Steelers are in a 10-10 or 14 -10 game.  I think if healthy this is a much better than average defense. With some offensive compliments, they are championship caliber. 

 

Right now the Packers are clearly playing better football and trending in a much better place than the Steelers. I hope that RT Zach Banner can play against GB (although the early word is probably not). he was allowed to practice yesterday and hopefully can/will be activated soon. He is a road-grader at RT which should help the OL with some toughness and physicality. He has already spoken out about the OL not picking up Big Ben after he is knocked down or sacked. I say that is a good gesture, but a better gesture would be keeping him protected and upright! I would wish you luck, but I wouldn't be sincere and you shouldn't need it anyway with your team. 

[incognito_man]

5 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

We will agree to disagree on this one.

Then you are disagreeing with math. DVOA accounts for all the things you mentioned, not just for Pittsburgh, but for every other team in the league as well. And currently PIT is rated below average in DVOA.

[Steeler Hitman]

1 minute ago, incognito_man said:

Then you are disagreeing with math. DVOA accounts for all the things you mentioned, not just for Pittsburgh, but for every other team in the league as well. And currently PIT is rated below average in DVOA.

My friend, I am not disagreeing with math. Nor  am I disputing the actual stats. You are what your record and stats say that you are. that is the bottom line.

However, math, metrics and stats only look at the results, and not the root causes. You want to accurately solve a problem, then you get to the root cause (s).  I am only offering the root cause to why the stats on the defense may be as actual/factual as they appear on paper. This is why pure stats can be somewhat misleading.  Stats say that last week was the first game that the Steelers defense didn't register a sack in like 60 or 70 games, but both starting OLB's were out. Bottom line is they didn't sack or generate enough heat on the QB. Not sure that would have been the case with  Watt and Highsmith starting and engram getting to rotate between them. You now can't simply double Heyward because you have two other players off the PS filling in at OLB. 

This is a 1-2 football team. That is a fact. The offensive line has played poorly. That is a fact. The QB is hurt, older, rattled, and inconsistent for whatever the reasons. Another fact. The items that I mentioned about starting defensive players being hurt is also a fact. This defense with all components and players held the Bills to 16 points despite the offense offering very little. Fact!  

A defense without TJ Watt is not as good as one with TJ Watt! Fact.  Take half your starters off of offense and/or defense and your stats won't be what they are now. Green Bay is a better team with Aaron Rogers, Aaron Jones and Devante Adams than without them. Fact! Stats will show the Packers offense being far less than it is without them. But that is what stats do. If you are looking strictly bottom line, then you are correct. If you are looking beyond more than just the stats then I may have a point. While math is important, I believe that including philosophy and logic as important subjects when forming opinions and conclusions. As you can tell I am not a huge fan of PFF either because of that reason. 

I don't think that I have spouted Steelers Homerism anywhere here. I have watched this team for a long time. i have seen why they have won and lost games. In 2019 the Steelers lost Big Ben and had to play with Mason Rudolph and Duck Hodges. Huge deficit offensively and passing wise compared to the Big Ben of the past. The offense nose dived. Last year, the defense was solid as well and then losses to Devon Bush, Bud Dupree, and others began to slowly riddle the defenses ability to be consistent. And throw in the fact that the offense became one dimensional. Look at the stats and how the Steelers played with Big Ben versus without him (Dusk and Mason) save the early first two games (compare the bodies of work). The Steelers defense  with all of it's bullets to fire versus without. 

[incognito_man]

1 minute ago, Steeler Hitman said:

My friend, I am not disagreeing with math. Nor  am I disputing the actual stats. You are what your record and stats say that you are. that is the bottom line.

However, math, metrics and stats only look at the results, and not the root causes. You want to accurately solve a problem, then you get to the root cause (s).

Root causes are irrelevant to the point that "Pittsburgh's defense is currently below average."

I understand there are reasons why. And I understand those reasons why may affect future performance. However, the point stands that the defense Pittsburgh has fielded so far in 2021 is below average.

Like all stats, DVOA is a snapshot in time. And the snapshot is indicating that Pittsburgh's defense hasn't been very good so far this season. For whatever reasons you listed. I don't disagree (or agree) with any of your reasons because I haven't paid attention. I was simply pointing out that calling Pitt's defense anything other than what they have shown to be so far is misleading and very likely relying on irrelevant data from 2020.

[ThatJerkDave]

48 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Then you are disagreeing with math. DVOA accounts for all the things you mentioned, not just for Pittsburgh, but for every other team in the league as well. And currently PIT is rated below average in DVOA.

How does DVDA factor in?

[incognito_man]

50 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said:

How does DVDA factor in?

On 9/29/2021 at 7:07 AM, coachbuns said:

Disagree .. it's called tampering.  Your buddy calls inquiring if your wife is available; would you be happy?!  LOL .. maybe, maybe not.

[ThatJerkDave]

Great teams win championships.  Bad teams don't.

[Steeler Hitman]

10 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

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Root causes are irrelevant to the point that "Pittsburgh's defense is currently below average."

Opinions vary. Like I said my friend, we can agree to disagree. No hard feelings on my part.

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I understand there are reasons why. And I understand those reasons why may affect future performance. However, the point stands that the defense Pittsburgh has fielded so far in 2021 is below average.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want my friend.

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Like all stats, DVOA is a snapshot in time. And the snapshot is indicating that Pittsburgh's defense hasn't been very good so far this season. For whatever reasons you listed. I don't disagree (or agree) with any of your reasons because I haven't paid attention.

You typically have to take many snapshots at different angles to get the entire or true picture. Here is the only place that I have a problem with your argument and making an objective assessment. Unlike you with the Pittsburgh Steelers, I HAVE PAID ATTENTION.

If you don't agree or value my perspective, that is your right. No hard feelings. 

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I was simply pointing out that calling Pitt's defense anything other than what they have shown to be so far is misleading and very likely relying on irrelevant data from 2020.

If you haven't paid attention how can you say that? I didn't come here to debate or banter back and forth with you or anyone else. I could have stayed on my own page for that. 😁😁😂 In all seriousness, I objectively engaged your comment and opinion as a Steelers fan. In my opinion, the defense is why they are not 0-3 and the offense is why they are not 3-0. Great defenses are typically not on the field. They get the other team off the field. The Steelers defense typically does that. What happens is the offense goes three and out instead of putting together a scoring drive or at lest stringing together three or four first downs. Great example of this is last Sunday, the Steelers intercept the Bengals and get the ball near midfield. Two plays later the Steelers offense throws an ugly INT that is returned to the other side of the 50. The Bengals score.  That is Steelers football in 2021. Irrelevant to a Packers fan in relation to the game. To the Steelers fan not so much. I respect your opinion and right to agree or disagree. No bad blood, just trying to give a different perspective. 

 

[craig]

Thanks for observations, Steeler Hitman.  

In some ways, the Packers defense might be a good fit for the Steelers offense?   Packers' orientation is kinda don't-allow-the-big-play.  It's a somewhat "prevent" orientation.  Play a lot of soft, contain stuff, and don't blitz much.  The run defense isn't stifling.  So it might be a defense that perhaps allows the Steelers some first downs, some drives, and allows some rhythm to form?  And allows your defense to rest some, without giving Rodgers and the Packers offense a vast number of possessions?

I think it's going to be important that the Packers convert on some of their early offensive possessions, and that the Packers offense puts up some points.  And hopefully get a couple of 3rd down stops somehow or other defensively.  

[incognito_man]

11 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

You are entitled to believe whatever you want my friend.

Thanks.

I choose to believe the facts I presented that neatly capture (in complete league-wide objective measurements) the verbose explanations you are attempting to provide specific to Pittsburgh. The neat part about DVOA is that everything you're trying to rationalize is already done so for both Pittsburgh and every other team. And the results indicate that the 2021 Pittsburgh defense is, so far, below average.

[Steeler Hitman]

1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

Thanks.

I choose to believe the facts I presented that neatly capture (in complete league-wide objective measurements) the verbose explanations you are attempting to provide specific to Pittsburgh. The neat part about DVOA is that everything you're trying to rationalize is already done so for both Pittsburgh and every other team. And the results indicate that the 2021 Pittsburgh defense is, so far, below average.

Good talking to you. Peace.

[skibrett15]

20 hours ago, mikebpackfan said:

Yeah, this and Big Ben sucking have me feeling confident.  But, without having followed them super close over the last decade, they have seemed like they were down-and-out several times, only to come back and have a nice stretch.  So, I am pretty cautious with my optimism.  Just like I was cautious with my pessimism last week.

Big ben looks awful.

Steelers defense should improve given the talent they have on that side of the ball.  I'd expect them to be up for us, and I'd expect their DL to dominate our young, inexperienced, patchwork OL.

 

All that said, it's a home game and we have the far superior QB.