AnAngryAmerican Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 8 minutes ago, Dbrog24 said: Dude it's so awkward and horrible on so many levels. It would essentially add 2 thirds to this trade for Payton...something to think about. It also brings a dude back in the building who majority broncos fans and players flat out don't like. It also completely NEUTERS Paton...could you imagine your boss bringing back a dude that YOU fired AND taking away more of your ability to showcase what you are elite at (draft) 😄. All this with Wilson already losing part of the locker room. I don't see how we wouldn't burn up like a supernova I said it at the time, if I’m George I resign today. They’re going to give Sean full control. Why stick around with no support. He’s just collecting a paycheck and George is a better football man than that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbrog24 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 The only only positive I see from this is it does truly give us the best chance to have a good offense from any of the candidates remaining (Ryans wasn't going to lead us anywhere IMO). As many of you are saying, it will either be a hit and we are playoff bound, or we burn to flames for many years to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosfan_101 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 17 minutes ago, Dbrog24 said: Dude it's so awkward and horrible on so many levels. It would essentially add 2 thirds to this trade for Payton...something to think about. It also brings a dude back in the building who majority broncos fans and players flat out don't like. It also completely NEUTERS Paton...could you imagine your boss bringing back a dude that YOU fired AND taking away more of your ability to showcase what you are elite at (draft) 😄. All this with Wilson already losing part of the locker room. I don't see how we wouldn't burn up like a supernova To be honest, Fangio is a long term solution at DC that Ejiro is not. In an ideal world, you probably hire Vic next winter after EE gets his head coaching shot, but if Vic wants to coach now, you can’t get him in 2024. Could do a HELL of a lot worse than Payton and Fangio running either side of the ball for the next 3+ years. Also, am I making this up in my brain, or did all the defensive players under Fangio rave about playing for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosfan_101 Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 @KevinCole___ is a former PFF guy, now works for RotoGrinders and writes his own substack. Real smart dude. His twitter timeline right now is chock full of optimism about both Payton AND Russy Wilson. Worth checking out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 13 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said: @KevinCole___ is a former PFF guy, now works for RotoGrinders and writes his own substack. Real smart dude. His twitter timeline right now is chock full of optimism about both Payton AND Russy Wilson. Worth checking out. Nate Tice and Robert Mays love it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbrog24 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 20 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said: To be honest, Fangio is a long term solution at DC that Ejiro is not. In an ideal world, you probably hire Vic next winter after EE gets his head coaching shot, but if Vic wants to coach now, you can’t get him in 2024. Could do a HELL of a lot worse than Payton and Fangio running either side of the ball for the next 3+ years. Also, am I making this up in my brain, or did all the defensive players under Fangio rave about playing for him? I do think our defensive players had a lot of respect for him...I never saw them light up like they do for Evero though and I know we had multiple offensive players frustrated with Vic (which Payton could address if it came up). It is a good point about EE being essentially a one year contract if we bring him back which nets us draft value vs Vic who won't likely get poached for anymore head coaching gigs. I suppose if we went that route it would again us just going all in with what he have now and praying that it works out. Again, it will either end up looking genius or end with the hackapocalypse looking like a more favorable year...which says about all there is to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 21 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said: To be honest, Fangio is a long term solution at DC that Ejiro is not. In an ideal world, you probably hire Vic next winter after EE gets his head coaching shot, but if Vic wants to coach now, you can’t get him in 2024. Could do a HELL of a lot worse than Payton and Fangio running either side of the ball for the next 3+ years. Also, am I making this up in my brain, or did all the defensive players under Fangio rave about playing for him? I'm OK with letting Evero walk in 2024, and collecting the picks with any promotion (DC with AC duties, or HC). Evero showed that while Fangio is an excellent DC, we can make the D work - and I like the extra aggression we had with Evero's scheme before everyone got hurt. Payton can bring in guys who can likely take over. I think it's moot regardless, all the talk is that Fangio is waiting for the SF position to open up - which it just did with Ryans going to HOU. I mean, who wouldn't want to be DC for that unit. If Evero doesn't get the IND or ARI gig (and this seems likely) - seems like a no-brainer to keep him, give him a raise to soothe ruffled feathers about being Hackett's friend, and wish him well after 2023 - and collect those sweet picks. The fact ownership denied other DC interviews seems like they're on that page - and it would be surprising that Payton cares enough to object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncos67 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 The Broncos are purely gambling on positive injury regression, and the fact that we lost almost every close game we played in last year. Payton gives us the best chance at a quickly rejuvenated offense, but then I have to ask the question....does he actually? Do we have the personnel, particularly at OL? Can Payton run his type of offense in cold weather/outside a dome? Like I said, I am usually very optimistic, but this time I just can't help but feel we're being completely desperate. All I am going to say is this. If the Broncos don't make the playoffs next year (unless Russ is out for the year or something), then Russ needs to go and the team needs to clean house top to bottom and start over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) I posted this on the News thread, no sense in adding more lol... _______________ In a vacuum, nothing wrong with hiring Sean Payton. He's a great O mind, and he's got enough status on his own to make it clear Russell Wilson has to change, and not be all about the "Let's Ride" and image he's tried (and failed) to cultivate. Hackett was a total disaster as HC/OC, but he also let Wilson be the alpha when his play didn't earn it. Payton has more than enough status here to be the guy to hold Wilson accountable. That's important. If Payton is willing to keep Evero as DC this year - then the other benefit is we get 2 end-of-3rd's in 2025, should Evero get a new gig that's a promotion (either HC or DC with AC title). That's unknown, but that would be a massive keep. Finally, with Payton as HC - you don't have to worry about losing your top OC mind to another team. As long as Payton's around, the O is taken care of. Those are all the positives...but the 1st benefit unfortunately isn't in a vacuum. So, the problems are 3-fold IMO: 1. The pick cost. The ONLY way you can pay a 1st and justify it is if you win a SB (duh), or if Payton brings about success and stability for such a long run, it re-establishes the DEN franchise as a serious contender and player. Winning SB's is hard, but if he were our HC until 2030, and we were in playoffs for 4-5 of those years, and was around to coach up the next QB...OK, all good. But if he's only around for a few years, and it doesn't work - UGH. That brings us to... 2. There's nothing to say Payton won't leave if things get sticky, like he did with NO. If Russell doesn't work out, what says that Payton won't just get up and "retire" in 2 or 3 years, and won't stick around to coach the next QB? THAT would be a massive fail. Again, he doesn't necessarily have to win a SB, if he's around to turn around Russ AND he's around for our next QB to develop him, then all good. But we have to recognize Payton decided he wasn't willing to stick around for NO once things got really tough. 3. Finally, we should also recognize Payton's scheme in its Brees form isn't a good fit for Wilson on his own. It's going to have to be modified to Wilson's abilities, and his weaknesses - being a pure drop-back, read the short- middle throw isn't Wilson at all. Again, Payton is a smart guy, top 5 O mind in terms of scheme and design - but he has to pass on the temptation to mold Wilson into Brees V2. This isn't to say he'll fall into this trap, but more than Wilson isn't an automatic fit for Payton's OG scheme. All in all, if there wasn't a pick swap, no worries, all good. But the pick swap matters. My first choice was Harbaugh by a mile because of it. But, what's done is done. For 2023, without that 1st - the real Q is how does DEN address OL - IMO they have 2 spots they can feel good about - LT / Bolles & G Meinerz. GM Paton did a great job of building up the roster and then screwed the pooch with HC Hackett hire, and the Wilson trade (to be fair to him, it's a deal 99+ percent of execs/pundits <save SEA FO/fangs and a small group of DEN fans> were behind). He's going to have to find magic in Day 2-3 and FA to upgrade the OL. That's the other major weakness on O, that losing the 2023 1st hurts a ton on. Time will tell how that works out. ______________________ As a pure hire, I don't have a problem with it merit-wise or qualifications-wise. But the pick price definitely hurts our ability to get better where we need to (while it's also MILES better than the 2 1sts, still tough even if we make playoffs and NO finishes bottom 10). If Paton can figure out how to upgrade our OL without the 1st, and Payton can adapt his scheme to Russ' abilities and weaknesses (trying to make him Bress V2 in its purest form IMO isn't going to work - but Payton is a top 5 O mind, I'd think he knows that lol), then we're in business. And if he can make Russell Wilson accountable and earn the team's respect / loyalty, rather than play the star and groom his image, then win-win-win......with a 4th win if Payton stays around long enough to groom our next QB. It could be a massive win-win-win for Payton, Wilson and the org (esp if Payton stays post-Wilson). Just with the pick cost, it's a massive L-L-L for all involved if Russ isn't fixed AND Payton bolts before Russ' successor is groomed and ready. So there's way more risk. Edited February 1, 2023 by Broncofan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Just now, broncos67 said: The Broncos are purely gambling on positive injury regression, and the fact that we lost almost every close game we played in last year. Payton gives us the best chance at a quickly rejuvenated offense, but then I have to ask the question....does he actually? Do we have the personnel, particularly at OL? Can Payton run his type of offense in cold weather/outside a dome? Like I said, I am usually very optimistic, but this time I just can't help but feel we're being completely desperate. All I am going to say is this. If the Broncos don't make the playoffs next year (unless Russ is out for the year or something), then Russ needs to go and the team needs to clean house top to bottom and start over. I wouldn't clean house with the coaching staff - for better or worse, we're hitching our wagon to Payton for the next 3+ years. The risk IMO is the other way around. If you mean, start the rebuild, yup, that's the flip side. If you suck, then you embrace the rebuild fully. That's how you decrease the pain. I'd take it one step further - if Hendon Hooker is there in Rd3 or Rd4, as long as Payton likes him - you go there. Sure, he won't play at least half, if not all of 2023. But you should plan for life after Russell anyways, and as we saw with PHI and Hurts/Wentz - if you can find a high-ceiling guy in Day 2-3, not the worst gamble. As for Paton, we all acknowledge his one strength is draft & roster building (outside of Russ obv) - he's going to have to have one helluva offseason now to rebuild the OL (think Dre'mont gets franchised, and we cut Glasgow/Edmonds/Darby/Jacob-Martin/Purcell & McManus and save 37M+, so net gain about 18M), and then see what Paton can do in FA and Rd3+ onwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 I honestly don't mind the 1st round pick for Payton. The draft is a crap shoot, and I seems like George gets good value in later rounds anyway. However, if this was a top 10 pick, I'd have some issues. Now, the Broncos have no excuses...a super bowl winning coach and QB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbrog24 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 There is definitely a way out of all this if we truly do suck again this year. In that scenario we would have a very high pick next year in a class which is supposed to have significantly better QBs. We could very easily pivot to one of those assuming Payton is willing to stick it out for that (as Broncofan stated). It would potentially allow us to build quite a culture again with clear coaching vision in place. This would make too much sense though therefor it probably won't happen 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) The way the Payton era can start off on the right note - re-hire OLC Mike Munchak. You don't have a 1st or 2nd to shore up the OL? Get a top-2 OL coach GOAT (only behind Scarnecchia all-time) to get the most of the guys we have and bring in. Munchak only wants to coach if it's DEN, it's such a win-win for all concerned. You get Munchak at OLC, and Evero as DC (and ready to recoup some picks in 2025 after a likely departure for 2024), then we're starting off things on the right foot. It doesn't mean that's the only path to success, but IMO it's such an easy one. Take the low-hanging fruit. Edited February 1, 2023 by Broncofan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 44 minutes ago, Broncofan said: The way the Payton era can start off on the right note - re-hire OLC Mike Munchak. You don't have a 1st or 2nd to shore up the OL? Get a top-2 OL coach GOAT (only behind Scarnecchia all-time) to get the most of the guys we have and bring in. Munchak only wants to coach if it's DEN, it's such a win-win for all concerned. You get Munchak at OLC, and Evero as DC (and ready to recoup some picks in 2025 after a likely departure for 2024), then we're starting off things on the right foot. It doesn't mean that's the only path to success, but IMO it's such an easy one. Take the low-hanging fruit. What if Evero goes elsewhere and you get Munch and Fangio back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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