2023 Rookie Minicamp / OTAs / Training Camp

[Chili]

Is having a player move positions considered a kiss of death to their chances of making the roster?

If they can't make it in their original position then their chances of succeeding in the new position must be minimal.

Tariq Carpenter is one such recent example. He was drafted as a safety but with the size to take some nickle/dime snaps at LB but now they given up on that and have asked him to switch to LB full time. Carpenter himself said he dropped to 215lbs during the season so i'm not sure how that is going to work.

In the past I recall Dantone Jones failing as a 3-4 DE and made a last ditch attempt to play him at OLB, James Looney switching from DE to TE which obviously didn't work out, Carl Bradford was an OLB but ended up moving inside at ILB. It seems like whenever we switch a player's position in their 2nd or 3rd seasons it's not necessarily a good thing for their roster prospects.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Chili

[Sandy]

24 minutes ago, Chili said:

Is having a player move positions considered a kiss of death to their chances of making the roster?

If they can't make it in their original position then their chances of succeeding in the new position must be minimal.

Tariq Carpenter is one such recent example. He was drafted as a safety but with the size to take some nickle/dime snaps at LB but now they given up on that and have asked him to switch to LB full time. Carpenter himself said he dropped to 215lbs during the season so i'm not sure how that is going to work.

In the past I recall Dantone Jones failing as a 3-4 DE and made a last ditch attempt to play him at OLB, James Looney switching from DE to TE which obviously didn't work out, Carl Bradford was an OLB but ended up moving inside at ILB. It seems like whenever we switch a player's position in their 2nd or 3rd seasons it's not necessarily a good thing for their roster prospects.

I think it can go both ways. As a forum we've recently discussed Hyde moving to safety and becoming a star for another team. 

But the fact that a team wants you to change positions is a sign that you weren't cutting it at your last one, so I'd guess a majority of these moves do not pan out.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

51 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

I want to know how many times he stared down his receivers for running the wrong routes after he made a bad pass? If that number is less than 1, we're on the right path. 

It will get better when the receivers figure out they can run the route from the playbook and not the one that Rodgers wanted instead.

[TheEagle]

For Carpenter, it likely doesn't matter much. I think he'll end up being a special teams demon and a good bet to make the roster as such (similar to Jarrett Bush).

[Old Guy]

49 minutes ago, Chili said:

Is having a player move positions considered a kiss of death to their chances of making the roster?

If they can't make it in their original position then their chances of succeeding in the new position must be minimal.

Tariq Carpenter is one such recent example. He was drafted as a safety but with the size to take some nickle/dime snaps at LB but now they given up on that and have asked him to switch to LB full time. Carpenter himself said he dropped to 215lbs during the season so i'm not sure how that is going to work.

In the past I recall Dantone Jones failing as a 3-4 DE and made a last ditch attempt to play him at OLB, James Looney switching from DE to TE which obviously didn't work out, Carl Bradford was an OLB but ended up moving inside at ILB. It seems like whenever we switch a player's position in their 2nd or 3rd seasons it's not necessarily a good thing for their roster prospects.

Fair point but Jones was a FRP and Carpenter 7th. Also, many scouts thought Carpenter, a college safety, should convert to LB in the NFL. Given we tried him at safety last year to no avail, he may have a chance. Dude ran a 4.4 I believe. That means nothing if he can't diagnose plays and get to where he is supposed to be. 

I'll bet on the athlete every time over the try hard guy who runs a 4.95. 

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Sure would like to hear about days where he's 14-16 instead of 6-16.  Hopefully that's to come.  I think he will do well eventually. 

No doubt.  But when I can find a way to use the word "Optional" now, I'm taking it!

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, gizmo2012 said:

only a couple of players were studs after they left GB, Micah Hyde yes, Casey Heyward yes, Corey Linsley yes, that is about it

 

Point of contention....

Hyde and Heyward were not studs while here.  They became studs somewhere else.

Linsley was a stud here and stud elsewhere.

Two different situations.

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, Chili said:

Is having a player move positions considered a kiss of death to their chances of making the roster?

If they can't make it in their original position then their chances of succeeding in the new position must be minimal.

Tariq Carpenter is one such recent example. He was drafted as a safety but with the size to take some nickle/dime snaps at LB but now they given up on that and have asked him to switch to LB full time. Carpenter himself said he dropped to 215lbs during the season so i'm not sure how that is going to work.

In the past I recall Dantone Jones failing as a 3-4 DE and made a last ditch attempt to play him at OLB, James Looney switching from DE to TE which obviously didn't work out, Carl Bradford was an OLB but ended up moving inside at ILB. It seems like whenever we switch a player's position in their 2nd or 3rd seasons it's not necessarily a good thing for their roster prospects.

As a general statement?  I agree.  But, there are always exceptions.

Such as an aging corner moving to safety.  Logical move.

And...kids may be an exception.  We've drafted a few guys this year that may be learning a new position.  DL vs. EDGE and vice versa.  For them, they will have some time to figure it out.  But if you are a 3 year vet and changing positions?  Good luck.

And...I have hope for Carpenter.

[R T]

3 hours ago, Chili said:

Is having a player move positions considered a kiss of death to their chances of making the roster?

If they can't make it in their original position then their chances of succeeding in the new position must be minimal.

Tariq Carpenter is one such recent example. He was drafted as a safety but with the size to take some nickle/dime snaps at LB but now they given up on that and have asked him to switch to LB full time. Carpenter himself said he dropped to 215lbs during the season so i'm not sure how that is going to work.

In the past I recall Dantone Jones failing as a 3-4 DE and made a last ditch attempt to play him at OLB, James Looney switching from DE to TE which obviously didn't work out, Carl Bradford was an OLB but ended up moving inside at ILB. It seems like whenever we switch a player's position in their 2nd or 3rd seasons it's not necessarily a good thing for their roster prospects.

You are over thinking this. Carpenter was drafted to play ST's and originally was to switch to LB last year, but number crunching had him at safety in title for 2022. That is per Carpenter back in April. If he plays a hybrid role of S/LB, like a joker, does it really matter want position he is listed at. Or does it matter when he is playing 80% of the ST's snaps if he is listed as a Safety or LB. 

If he is on the opening day 53 it will probably have little to do with how he plays on defense. 

[Zycho32]

4 hours ago, Chili said:

Is having a player move positions considered a kiss of death to their chances of making the roster?

If they can't make it in their original position then their chances of succeeding in the new position must be minimal.

Tariq Carpenter is one such recent example. He was drafted as a safety but with the size to take some nickle/dime snaps at LB but now they given up on that and have asked him to switch to LB full time. Carpenter himself said he dropped to 215lbs during the season so i'm not sure how that is going to work.

In the past I recall Dantone Jones failing as a 3-4 DE and made a last ditch attempt to play him at OLB, James Looney switching from DE to TE which obviously didn't work out, Carl Bradford was an OLB but ended up moving inside at ILB. It seems like whenever we switch a player's position in their 2nd or 3rd seasons it's not necessarily a good thing for their roster prospects.

Leaving Carpenter out of the equation for now, it's not necessarily a Kiss of Death. It just seems that way because such a move is littered with the bodies of fringe-or-bust prospects who looked to be on their way out well before the move was made. It does tank the averages, but failure isn't a given.

Granted, it was much more viable a strategy back in the 50's and 60's when the pros went to Platoon-style but the Colleges didn't follow suit until '65. The Lombardi Packers had plenty of these types; Willie Davis was a failed OT with the Browns before being traded here, Paul Hornung was a Quarterback for Notre Dame, Herb Adderley AND Bob Jeter were halfbacks for Michigan State and Iowa, Willie Wood was a freaking black QB for USC. There's even been at least one fairly successful story of a mid-career position change(Eddie Lee Ivery, a halfback who turned wideout a la Frank Gifford and had a brief revival in the 80's doing that).

As for the modern day, it's kind of a Catch-22; they would succeed in their new positions if their talent was a bit better, but if their talent was a bit better they wouldn't have changed positions in the first place. And so the loop goes for the rule, but like any rule, there are exceptions that prove it.

[craig]

5 hours ago, {Family Ghost} said:

Myers' job is on the line.  They are clearly going to give him a lot of competition for his starting gig.  Sean Rhyan is getting work there as well.  Zach Tom figures to get work there as well. It's shaping up to be a healthy competition for the five best.  

 

Ghost, I've got a different take? 

1. I think the competition isn't for Myers starting job, it's for backup?   
2. In the event of in-game or multi-game injury. 
3. Most of the depth guys they've got played tackle or guard in college.  So figuring if anybody can be adequate as backup-center is important. 
4. The new UDFA they added, I don't imagine they're looking for him to come in, learn a new position, and win the starting job in camp.
5. Tom:  Stenno mentioned Tom competing on the right side, RG and RT; then as an add-on mentioned looking at him a little at center, too.  I didn't take that as Tom competing with Myers; I again thought it was looking at him as contingency backup.  
6. I think in-game contingency can also different from multi-game injury replacement.  They only carry 7, maybe 8 game-day OL.  Maybe your best true center backup is on PS, but you need one of the game-day guys to be able to cover for the rest of the game.  
7. I'm imagining Tom hypothetically winning RT, with Nijman + Newman as game-day depth.  Are either of them OK as contingency C?  Or would Tom or Runyan slide over to cover an in-game injury? 
8. Maybe that same guy would cover if it's an 8-week injury.  But also possible that your best PS-center would get pulled up for that, and Tom goes back to RT?
9. Obviously this camp is for now.  Myers is the tenured guy, and will be given full chance to thrive.  But *IF* he's bad, and *IF* Rhyan or UDFA guy get a year of practice and look excellent, the competition-to-start might be different next year, or perhaps late season once playoffs are out of site.  Or maybe Tom, too, if Nijman wins RT, excels, and gets a multi-year extension?  

[craig]

Position switch, I agree with the general idea that guys who fail at one and then get switched rarely excel post-switch.  Some excellent examples were listed.  

I think it maybe depends on whether we're talking about a pro-level switch, versus a college-to-pro switch?  Seems the Packers have drafted a lot of college OT who became capable guards or centers in the pros.  Sitton, Lang, Lane Taylor, JC Tretter, Dietrich-Smith, Runyan, Newman, Jenkins.  Wasn't Mike Wahle a position switch, too?  Granted, many of those the Packers already knew or anticipated when they drafted them that they planned to switch them.  So, that's maybe different from being drafted for one position, being given a year or more to develop, and then switching.  

On Carpenter, agree with RT.  Drafted as ST, and he'll play a lot there.  While he played safety in college, MLF envisioned him as a niche package LB; as RT noted he got pushed back to safety out of necessity, not by draft intent.  Through his own dumbness or bad advice, he put on bunch of weight to size up for LB, which in turn made him slow and breathless for safety usage.  He's a standard ST guy; if he plays some snaps besides, it will be as a package guy in packages that aren't used heavily.  

[St Vince]

6 hours ago, gizmo2012 said:

only a couple of players were studs after they left GB, Micah Hyde yes, Casey Heyward yes, Corey Linsley yes, that is about it

 

Sarcasm 

[Leader]

 

[Old Guy]

9 hours ago, Leader said:

 

The few pictures where you see Zach Tom, he looks thicker from the waist down. That's a good thing.