GDT: Denver at Miami

[BroncoBruin]

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/9/21/23883363/russell-wilson-denver-broncos-sean-payton
 

Thought this was an interesting read in light of the disagreement across the fanbase about Russ’ play. 

[AkronsWitness]

7 hours ago, AKRNA said:

personally I think Sean deserves about a 2-3 year pass. He's had nothing to do with the mess he inherited and can't really hope to accomplish much his first year other than stop the bleeding. Turning this train wreck around will take time.

He did have a say in the hiring of Vance Joseph though--and he is the reason the Broncos are currently sitting at 0-2 and about to be 0-3. Its not a player talent issue, its not a QB issue and its not a HC issue. Its 1 issue. Defensive coordinator. This is essentially the same defense as last year personnel wise, the only difference is the DC and they now cant stop Jimmy G or Howell. 

Its been a long time since Ive seen the Broncos lose a game when the offense scored 30+ points and the defense blew it. Its usually the other way around. 

[lomaxgrUK]

5 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

He did have a say in the hiring of Vance Joseph though--and he is the reason the Broncos are currently sitting at 0-2 and about to be 0-3. Its not a player talent issue, its not a QB issue and its not a HC issue

Two out these three statements are debatable, in particular the first one. Our front 7 talent is so bare, and it was last season too. 

From what I've seen on here and Twitter, it sure feels like Zach Allen and DJ Jones are getting a pass for their very below par play in relation to their contracts so far this season.

[Broncofan]

13 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Two out these three statements are debatable, in particular the first one. Our front 7 talent is so bare, and it was last season too. 

From what I've seen on here and Twitter, it sure feels like Zach Allen and DJ Jones are getting a pass for their very below par play in relation to their contracts so far this season.

Allen I’m willing to give a pass as he gets used to a new team.   It’s early.  DJ Jones is worrisome because it’s not his first year.  New scheme but that raises the possibility it’s not a great fit.   He was never coming to help the pass rush but he was supposed to anchor the run D.  Again though my biggest concern is VJ having very little in terms of creativity / adaptability or aggression.  
 

Everything we do on D seems passive (read and react) and telegraphed.  Bend but don’t break D’s are not a good fit imo in today’s NFL.  TO’s and negative plays are how you put O’s in the deep end and Evero understood that.  
 

We’ve literally got the same personnel as last year minus Dre’mont vs Allen (and no Browning so far) yet the players are all reacting and sitting back.  No attack whatsoever.  I can’t help but think it’s the scheme and coaching on D.   It’s tough to watch.   Obv losing Browning & Sterns hurts but we played without both last year and were way more aggressive for the first 12+ games until the D broke. 
 

I agree it’s not coaching on O.  D though it’s def talent but a ton on coaching.   I get the convo started on O though. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Broncofan

[AkronsWitness]

5 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

Two out these three statements are debatable, in particular the first one. Our front 7 talent is so bare, and it was last season too. 

From what I've seen on here and Twitter, it sure feels like Zach Allen and DJ Jones are getting a pass for their very below par play in relation to their contracts so far this season.

I can agree with that about Allen/Jones but when players go from being productive to having no impact along with the entire unit having no impact--its coaching. Its playcalling. Its the scheme.

The most perfect example is the 2022 Browns vs. 2023 Browns defense. Joe Woods had those guys looking like D2 players last year, Jim Schwartz comes in largely with the same exact personnel and they look like one of the best defenses in football. 

Coaching matters more than player talent. A good coach/system can get average players to play at their very best. A bad coach/system can tank the entire operation and have good players playing at their worst.

 

[AKRNA]

3 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

I can agree with that about Allen/Jones but when players go from being productive to having no impact along with the entire unit having no impact--its coaching. Its playcalling. Its the scheme.

The most perfect example is the 2022 Browns vs. 2023 Browns defense. Joe Woods had those guys looking like D2 players last year, Jim Schwartz comes in largely with the same exact personnel and they look like one of the best defenses in football. 

Coaching matters more than player talent. A good coach/system can get average players to play at their very best. A bad coach/system can tank the entire operation and have good players playing at their worst.

 

The fact that VJ isn't even close to Vic or Ejiro should be no surprise. Lots of postera, @Dbrog24 comes to mind have been pointing that out for a while.

I'm sure, after our new GM had fired 3 HC's and two entire coaching staffs in a little over 12 months, Sean had no problem enticing the best coordinators and assistant coaches to pack up their familys and move to Denver.

[AnAngryAmerican]

On 9/21/2023 at 1:12 PM, AKRNA said:

personally I think Sean deserves about a 2-3 year pass. He's had nothing to do with the mess he inherited and can't really hope to accomplish much his first year other than stop the bleeding. Turning this train wreck around will take time.

I do agree. Sean does need time. My point was that so far the top three things on his to-do list - fixing Russ, cleaning up the in-game miscues and winning close games - are all so far, at best, incomplete grades.

Russ has been improved; I disagree with Deuce as yes, he’s not Mahomes but that was never the expectation, but he is improved. The in-game is, again, better but they’re not getting plays in efficiently, part of which is on Russ which only reiterates point one. And we’re 0-2 in two home games against teams that are not expected to make the playoffs (or weren’t at season’s start, Washington looks solid, the Raiders are the still the McRaiders). In both games we had halftime leads and lost closely when we should have won, if not won comfortably.

But I am 100000000% on board with giving Sean a lot of time to get things fixed. I do think he is a good coach and having a year or two with a real compliment of draft picks should help. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by AnAngryAmerican

[AkronsWitness]

22 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I do agree. Sean does need time. My point was that so far the top three things on his to-do list - fixing Russ, cleaning up the in-game miscues and winning close games - are all so far, at best, incomplete grades.

Russ has been improved; I disagree with Deuce as yes, he’s not Mahomes but that was never the expectation, but he is improved. The in-game is, again, better but they’re not getting plays in efficiently, part of which is on Russ which only reiterates point one. And we’re 0-2 in two home games against teams that are to expected to make the playoffs (or weren’t at season’s start, Washington looks solid, the Raiders are the still the McRaiders). In both games we had halftime leads and lost closely when we should have won, if not won comfortably.

But I am 100000000% on board with giving Sean a lot of time to get things fixed. I do think he is a good coach and having a year or two with a real compliment of draft picks should help. 

Dont want to sound over dramatic, but I wonder if a major roster shakeup at the deadline would actually do this team some good and into the future. There are a lot of players here that have trade value that frankly do not know what its like to win or how to win. 

Im talking about guys like Simmons, Sutton, Jeudy, ect. Its clear Sean has his fingerprints all over this team with bringing in 8+ guys from NO that he trusts they know how to win. Im just thinking if the Broncos start off 2-7 if the best move for the franchise would be to start with a clean deck. Trade the players who have value, reset some of the cap and let Sean build his team with HIS guys.

It feels like a bit of starting over in the rebuild, but what we have just isnt working--and we are on year 2-3 of some of these guys not working. We have been waiting for Sutton to turn back into Pro Bowl Sutton for years now, Jeudy is one more serious injury away from being KJ Hamler, Russ is.....Russ, Dulcich cant stay on the field. We are wasting salary on yesterdays players everywhere and nobody can stay healthy.

Maybe a massive overhaul is needed if things keep going this way. Im not down on the new guys like Javonte/Mims/McGlinchy/Surtain because they havent been around long enough to be ruined yet but some of the old weight might have to go.

Edited September 22, 2023 by AkronsWitness

[jolly red giant]

18 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

He did have a say in the hiring of Vance Joseph though- 

I think Joseph was well down the list - 

Payton's first choice was Vic Fangio - Brian Flores and Steve Wilks were also on his shopping list - as was Sean Desai  - all of whom took DC jobs elsewhere - I wonder why? 

Well Fangio was probably p*ssed about getting sacked by Paton - Flores was probably still p*ssed at Elway and the HC interview - Wilks and Desai opted for jobs where they might win a SB (and potentially get themselves in the frame for a HC job) - and the Broncos tried to retain Evero who opted to go to the Panthers (apparently out of loyalty to Hackett - but that is probably a bit of a stretch).

[anewdawn]

3 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Dont want to sound over dramatic, but I wonder if a major roster shakeup at the deadline would actually do this team some good and into the future. There are a lot of players here that have trade value that frankly do not know what its like to win or how to win. 

Im talking about guys like Simmons, Sutton, Jeudy, ect. Its clear Sean has his fingerprints all over this team with bringing in 8+ guys from NO that he trusts they know how to win. Im just thinking if the Broncos start off 2-7 if the best move for the franchise would be to start with a clean deck. Trade the players who have value, reset some of the cap and let Sean build his team with HIS guys.

It feels like a bit of starting over in the rebuild, but what we have just isnt working--and we are on year 2-3 of some of these guys not working. We have been waiting for Sutton to turn back into Pro Bowl Sutton for years now, Jeudy is one more serious injury away from being KJ Hamler, Russ is.....Russ, Dulcich cant stay on the field. We are wasting salary on yesterdays players everywhere and nobody can stay healthy.

Maybe a massive overhaul is needed if things keep going this way. Im not down on the new guys like Javonte/Mims/McGlinchy/Surtain because they havent been around long enough to be ruined yet but some of the old weight might have to go.

I think Sean gives a wink and a smile when questioned how a 4-13 team (if that) compares to Hackett's five win season of last year, like what kind of coaching job does that reflect upon Sean after he shot his mouth off about Hackett?  We then draft for hope again but how long does it take for a rookie qb to compete especially when you have nothing at all to work with?  We are in Lions hell for quite a few years but I for one am used to it

[jolly red giant]

34 minutes ago, anewdawn said:

I think Sean gives a wink and a smile when questioned how a 4-13 team (if that) compares to Hackett's five win season of last year, like what kind of coaching job does that reflect upon Sean after he shot his mouth off about Hackett?  We then draft for hope again but how long does it take for a rookie qb to compete especially when you have nothing at all to work with?  We are in Lions hell for quite a few years but I for one am used to it

I know I'm being a bit picky - Hackett didn't win five games - the Broncos beat the Texans, the Cards, the Jags (shouldn't have won it) and the 49ers (by 11-10 after the defence forced three turnovers).

Rosberg lost 24-27 to the Chiefs and beat the Chargers 31-28 - scoring more points in both games than all of Hackett's with the exception of the 28-34 loss to the Chiefs.

Edited September 22, 2023 by jolly red giant

[AkronsWitness]

1 hour ago, anewdawn said:

I think Sean gives a wink and a smile when questioned how a 4-13 team (if that) compares to Hackett's five win season of last year, like what kind of coaching job does that reflect upon Sean after he shot his mouth off about Hackett?  We then draft for hope again but how long does it take for a rookie qb to compete especially when you have nothing at all to work with?  We are in Lions hell for quite a few years but I for one am used to it

My thoughts is this....and it's crazy....but here ya go.

Wait until the trade deadline when CHI is 1-10 and firmly in the Williams race. Then trade a 3rd for Justin Fields to sit a year behind Wilson. 

PSA I like Fields more than others and fully think he is being mismanaged. If you can pull him out of that dumpster fire and with a real offensive minded HC like Sean....you could get your 10 yr franchise QB for pennies on the dollar based on the Bears own stupidity 

[Broncofan]

3 hours ago, jolly red giant said:

I know I'm being a bit picky - Hackett didn't win five games - the Broncos beat the Texans, the Cards, the Jags (shouldn't have won it) and the 49ers (by 11-10 after the defence forced three turnovers).

Rosberg lost 24-27 to the Chiefs and beat the Chargers 31-28 - scoring more points in both games than all of Hackett's with the exception of the 28-34 loss to the Chiefs.

You’re not being picky.   It was a last place schedule.  And it’s fair to say we got outcoached with 1-score games where simple stuff like getting the plays in on time, and Hackett spouting halftime BS like “we have to better in red zone (when we made 1 trip)” or “we need to better on 3rd down” when we were averaging less than 1 yd on 1st - not hard to think he cost us 3+ games  last year.   Which is a pretty special feat.     He wasn't our only problem, but he was an absolute disaster - which NYJ fans are finding out now that A-Rod is gone (as when A-Rod was around, Hackett didn't have to be the one in charge - so it's going about as you'd expect on O without him).

Edited September 23, 2023 by Broncofan

[Broncofan]

 

First no Browning or Sterns now no Simmons.   Woof.

[big_palooka]

11 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

My thoughts is this....and it's crazy....but here ya go.

Wait until the trade deadline when CHI is 1-10 and firmly in the Williams race. Then trade a 3rd for Justin Fields to sit a year behind Wilson. 

PSA I like Fields more than others and fully think he is being mismanaged. If you can pull him out of that dumpster fire and with a real offensive minded HC like Sean....you could get your 10 yr franchise QB for pennies on the dollar based on the Bears own stupidity 

Fields can't read defenses, period. He doesn't have it upstairs. In Payton's offense that relies on timing and being able to read defenses, he'd be a disaster. 

People need to stop overrating Fields. He's a terrific athlete who people want to be a good QB. He's awful, the Bears coaching is awful. Both things can be true.