BleedTheClock Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Mind Character said: Saying that Chase Young is a Tremendous talent but not so special as to trade a 1.) A Generational Talent in Odell Beckham Jr. AND 2.) All Pro-Talent Jedrick Wills Jr./Tristan Wirfs/Andrew Thomas/Cee Dee Lamb/Kristian Fulton AND 3.) David Njoku AND 4.) Creating a Disgruntled Jarvis Landry ... that is not a de-valuing of Chase Young's ability at all. I don't want to trade OBJ. But calling him a generational talent is out of line. He's arguably not even a top 5 WR right now, in his physical prime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Mind Character said: How does Chase Young immediately help the Offensive Line? How does offensive line immediately help our anemic pass rush? I agree OL is more of a concern that pass rush, but it's not like we couldn't address our OL via FA or later in the draft if we did that trade. That being said, it's a fantasy trade that could never happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said: I don't want to trade OBJ. But calling him a generational talent is out of line. He's arguably not even a top 5 WR right now, in his physical prime. How easy it is to forget talent after one down, injured season of play and one with a broken leg. If you don't think that OBJ based on what he's done thus far in this league including with Eli Manning in his spiraling decline rises to the amount of a generational receiving talent, I don't know what to tell you. OBJ is right up there with Julio Jones, AJ Green, and the other "generational talent" WRs to enter the league recently. A generation in NFL Terms is 7-10 years. Of WRs entering the league since 2009, OBJ is absolutely a generational talent based on skill/ability and started out his career with 3 consecutive 1300yards+/10TD+ seasons. He then broke his leg. Bones heal back just as strong. The year after that he had a quad and groin injury and a spiraling declining Eli Manning. The year after that he suffered sports hernias before the season and played on a Freddie Kitchens directed Cleveland Browns. All his talent, did not just get beamed out his body. If you have qualms with the word generational, then he's an All-Pro Talent. Injuries are a real thing. He's been injured, but even through injury and a trash offense he's still impacts the game positively even without the ball. 13 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said: I agree OL is more of a concern that pass rush, but it's not like we couldn't address our OL via FA or later in the draft if we did that trade. Teams can't fill all holes in a given year, but if I had to choose between plugging the OT hole or DE hole, then I'm plugging the OT roster hole. Given Free Agency and the draft pool, it looks as if using our high 1st round pick is our best option to do so. Who says we can address our OL issue in FA or the later in the draft? To assume that we can address the issues later in the draft is an assumption. The OLine class isn't that way. The pass rushing class is even less deep than the OLine class. If our primary concern is OLine, then why not address the pass rush concerns later in the draft or free agency instead. Edited January 5, 2020 by Mind Character 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mind Character said: How easy it is to forget talent after one down, injured season of play and one with a broken leg. I didn't forget him. I think he's a beast and should be a huge part of our future. Those trying to cast him out are insane. 7 minutes ago, Mind Character said: If you don't think that OBJ based on what he's done thus far in this league including with Eli Manning in his spiraling decline rises to the amount of a generational receiving talent, I don't know what to tell you. Generational means you don't think there will ever be another player like him in this generation. That is crazy. 7 minutes ago, Mind Character said: OBJ is right up there with Julio Jones, AJ Green, and the other "generational talent" WRs to enter the league recently. A generation in NFL Terms is 7-10 years. Of WRs entering the league since 2009, OBJ is absolutely a generational talent based on skill/ability and started out his career with 3 consecutive 1300yards+/10TD+ seasons. I don't know where you got this from. "generational" to me means all of the people on this earth right now's life spans. That's the actual definition. 7 minutes ago, Mind Character said: All his talent, did not just get beamed out his body. If you have qualms with the word generational, then he's an All-Pro Talent. That's fine to say. I'd agree with that. Our disagreement is with the interpretation of "generational." I would say there are only two generational WR's since I've been alive: 1. Randy Moss 2. Calvin Johnson 7 minutes ago, Mind Character said: To assume that we can address the issues later in the draft is an assumption. The OLine class isn't that way. The pass rushing class is even less deep than the OLine class. If our primary concern is OLine, then why not address the pass rush concerns later in the draft or free agency instead. We can address pass rush later in the draft. But the difference between Chase Young and the 2nd round pass rushers is freaking astronomical. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 4 hours ago, BleedTheClock said: I didn't forget him. I think he's a beast and should be a huge part of our future. Those trying to cast him out are insane. Generational means you don't think there will ever be another player like him in this generation. That is crazy. I don't know where you got this from. "generational" to me means all of the people on this earth right now's life spans. That's the actual definition. That's fine to say. I'd agree with that. Our disagreement is with the interpretation of "generational." I would say there are only two generational WR's since I've been alive: 1. Randy Moss 2. Calvin Johnson We can address pass rush later in the draft. But the difference between Chase Young and the 2nd round pass rushers is freaking astronomical. Indeed, you're right that the difference between Chase Young and AJ Epenesa is a very wide margin. Indeed, our disagreement is a lot to do with how we define the word generational. When I say "generational" I'm referring to the NFL player life-span 7-10 years meaning it would take another NFL life-span cycle before we might witness a talent such as that again. That's often how a lot of scouts use the word "generational" with some extending it up to 15 years. Not "generational" as in a human beings life-span of 70-84 or so years or if a human being is 30 or so 50 years. American football's only been around 90 or so years. So, if we were to use generational in that sense we could really hardly ever use the word generational because we'd be saying this player is a Once in 70-84 years or 40 years player depending on a given human beings life span. It is what it is. Chase Young is a special, elite, all-pro talent. It's just my opinion that OBJ and one of the top 3 All-Pro talent OLineman wouldn't be a good trade for Chase Young just because of our need for an elite OLineman and my belief that OBJ has at least 2 more years of goin off on the league if he can stay healthy (a big if though). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 8 hours ago, Mind Character said: How does Chase Young immediately help the Offensive Line? If Chase Young is an All-Pro talent, are there any potential All-Pro OLineman available in this draft? Calling Michael Jordan the best player of all time and Lebron James the 2nd best of all time is choosing between two all time greats and isn't a slight or under-valuing of his talents. Saying that Chase Young is a Tremendous talent but not so special as to trade a 1.) A Generational Talent in Odell Beckham Jr. AND 2.) All Pro-Talent Jedrick Wills Jr./Tristan Wirfs/Andrew Thomas/Cee Dee Lamb/Kristian Fulton AND 3.) David Njoku AND 4.) Creating a Disgruntled Jarvis Landry ... that is not a de-valuing of Chase Young's ability at all. I can think both Chase Young is an All-Pro talent and the proposed trade not make sense. Both can be true. I think there's 3 All-Pro talent Offensive Lineman (Wirfs, Thomas, Wills) that we may be able to acquire via their falling to us or trading up. I don't believe trading one of them plus OBJ and David Njoku for Chase Young and Trent Williams makes sense based on my evaluation of them. We may have differing evaluations. I think while Young and Garrett certainly have the talent to possibly be one of the better/best DE duos in NFL History, in a league that's seen the pairings of Lawrence Taylor and Leonard Marshall, Reggie White and Clyde Simmons, Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis, and Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith I don't think it would be the certainty you make it out to be. I do get your point that the pairing of Young and Garrett would be special and elite. You're right, it won't happen. Yes but would you trade OBJ and Olivier Vernon for Jabril Peppers, Zietler, and a 1/3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 13 minutes ago, NateDawg said: Yes but would you trade OBJ and Olivier Vernon for Jabril Peppers, Zietler, and a 1/3? Pre-draft I locked in on trading down and selecting either Jonathan Abram, Nasir Adderley, Jerry Tillery, Darnell Savage, or Andre Dillard. So, would I trade OBJ and Olivier Vernon for Jabrill Peppers, Kevin Zeitler, and Jonathan Abram/Nasir Adderley/Jerry TIllery/Darnell Savage/Andre Dillard? Knowing what I know now (injuries and season production) probably not. That all is based on the belief that OBJ is healthy and plays up to his talent for the next 2-3 years. His great will likely exceed the collective good of all those players. But it's close. Oddly enough, if you would've came to me pre-draft and offered up those trade terms I would've said no to acquiring OBJ. That's because I believed in the Pairing of Jabrill Peppers and and Adderley/Abram a lot. Zeitler was an important piece but he's not a high quality impact player but instead a quality starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt27j Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 Pretty good debate actually. I would put OBJ with AJ Green and hopkins. Guys just slightly below hof players like julio, ab, and looking like michael thomas. Same amount of physical talent, but the have that extra something that makes them unstoppable at all levels. Green and OBJ have never been wrs that feed on short stuff, and if you can limit them to that they get frustrated and have a minimal impact. Still they always be good for one big play a game. Then you can talk about a guy like Jordy nelson. Very talented but not quite obj or green level. Yet playing with arodge he made plays all over the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 I like this Kmet kid, but he needs more muscle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 27 minutes ago, candyman93 said: I like this Kmet kid, but he needs more muscle. Colby Parkinson is my top TE because he can block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 Tua declared which is good for us 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big poppa pump Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 8 minutes ago, candyman93 said: Tua declared which is good for us Hopefully he goes top 9 despite the injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistakey Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I've literally never been more excited to draft an offensive lineman with our first overall pick. hell has frozen over. lets do this thing. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwibrown Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, big poppa pump said: Hopefully he goes top 9 despite the injury. There are 3 qb needy teams a head of us iirc, bengals, chargers and somone else, he should go, or aw should trade down woth whoever wants him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie man Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 31 minutes ago, mistakey said: I've literally never been more excited to draft an offensive lineman with our first overall pick. hell has frozen over. lets do this thing. I need Thomas or Wirfs somehow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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