What NFL hill are you willing to die on?

[childofpudding]

11 hours ago, Bolts223 said:

But flat out saying "This QB is better because they have more rings than this QB" is just a talking point that I'd expect to hear from Skip Bayless. An argument that is all style and no substance.

I do agree with you if the person is ONLY using rings to make his argument, but I think that is largely a strawman. For example, I've never heard anyone argue that Eli is or ever has been a better QB than Rodgers.

The ultimate goal for a team is to win the SB, and the QB is the most important position. So considering championships as just one factor of many in a discussion about how good a QB is absolutely makes sense.

[ronjon1990]

4 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

See I don’t like the whole “QB vs QB” thing some people do, as if it were a tennis match.  Alex Smith very arguably played a better game than Brees, but there’s a big difference between playing against the Saints very mediocre at best defense and the best defense in the league.  If you were to swap defenses, the Saints probably win that game 48-10.  

Just another example of how football is very much a team game.  

Naw, Vilma would've been told to go after Brees' shoulder instead of Smith's head and it would've worked. 

[childofpudding]

Teams should be able to challenge either everything or nothing.

[Jlowe22]

12 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Naw, Vilma would've been told to go after Brees' shoulder instead of Smith's head and it would've worked. 

Defenders had been targeting injuries for years, that’s nothing new.  And in the Saints case, it didn’t work anyway.

[SkippyX]

15 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

I do agree with you if the person is ONLY using rings to make his argument, but I think that is largely a strawman. For example, I've never heard anyone argue that Eli is or ever has been a better QB than Rodgers.

The ultimate goal for a team is to win the SB, and the QB is the most important position. So considering championships as just one factor of many in a discussion about how good a QB is absolutely makes sense.

This!

 

You can't really say Eli and Ben are equal with 2 Super Bowls because Ben is just a far better passer.

You can say that Rivers is a far better passer than Eli but Eli came up huge over 2 different 4 game stretches to get 2 rings.

The 3 of them are 6,7,8 in passing yards and in passing TDs (in different orders)

So Ben > Eli > Rivers is fair, even if it causes gnashing of teeth and wearing the sackcloth.

• If Rivers and Eli play a few more good years then all 3 of them are going into the Hall of Fame.
• Getting LAC to a Super Bowl would not hurt either

Plunkett > Rivers is goofy, because he does not have the accumulation or longevity to go with those 2 rings.

• He also does not have the best player on planet earth over a short career like Terrell Davis or Kurt Warner

Rivers being a Hall of Fame player at this very second is not really about what he has accomplished. Its comparing him to 12 other guys in the last 20 years.

Its also close enough that people who think Rivers is better than Eli or that both should not be in or that both should be in are not saying anything radical.

Edited September 5, 2019 by SkippyX

[Uncle Buck]

6 hours ago, navysaintsfan said:

I agree with you so much here. I think he is one of the most physically gifted QBs I have ever seen. But his overall game is insanely overrated.

You can count me in that group too.  I've been saying it for years.

[Uncle Buck]

1 hour ago, Elky said:

Dan Marino is the most overrated player in history.

Did you ever see him play?

[frenchie]

12 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

Nobody is ever going to change my mind on Tebow.  He could have been a great one if Elway had kept him and let him sit behind Payton for a few years.  Instead, Elway is going to be rolling with what's left of Joe Flacco this season.

I don't know if he would have been great, but it still aggravates me the way he was screwed over.

In 2011, Tebow took over a 1-4 team; then won 7 of 8 games; got into the playoffs as the 6th seed; wins a playoff game by upsetting the #3 seed.  

His reward?  Getting replaced, then traded less than 2 months later.  Sorry, but any young QB that has that kind of success, regardless of how it gets accomplished, doesn't get treated this way.  Yes, it wasn't pretty, but the media crapped on this guy every chance they got; it was disgusting.  Some of the things said about Tebow would have prompted firings, had they been said about other QBs.  I will always look at Tebow's NFL career as a total hit job by the media.  I don't know what was going on internally in the league, and I'm sure they have a role in this, but the media was absolutely praying for this kid's failure.

Tim Tebow 2011 - 13 starts, 8 wins, 2200 yards, 14 TDs, 6 INTs 72.9 passer rating. 

Geno Smith 2013 - 16 starts, 8 wins, 3050 yards, 12 TDs, 21 INTs, 66.5 passer rating. 

Smith is currently 2nd string QB for Seattle, and Tebow has been out of the league for 6 years.  Something's not right here...

[Jlowe22]

I think Tebow could have gotten a chance to be a backup, but he was such a bad passer he never would have been great, sitting behind Peyton or not.

[Mox]

55 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

You can count me in that group too.  I've been saying it for years.

And you've been wrong for years.

[Uncle Buck]

1 minute ago, Bullet Club said:

And you've been wrong for years.

Looks like more people are coming around to my way of thinking though.   Hmmm...

[Mox]

1 minute ago, Uncle Buck said:

Looks like more people are coming around to my way of thinking though.   Hmmm...

Current Rodgers is overrated. Peak Rodgers was not. But you could never get over that being the anti-Rodgers, pro-T-Jack/Tebow evaluator you were.

[Pool]

29 minutes ago, frenchie said:

I don't know if he would have been great, but it still aggravates me the way he was screwed over.

In 2011, Tebow took over a 1-4 team; then won 7 of 8 games; got into the playoffs as the 6th seed; wins a playoff game by upsetting the #3 seed.  

His reward?  Getting replaced, then traded less than 2 months later.  Sorry, but any young QB that has that kind of success, regardless of how it gets accomplished, doesn't get treated this way.  Yes, it wasn't pretty, but the media crapped on this guy every chance they got; it was disgusting.  Some of the things said about Tebow would have prompted firings, had they been said about other QBs.  I will always look at Tebow's NFL career as a total hit job by the media.  I don't know what was going on internally in the league, and I'm sure they have a role in this, but the media was absolutely praying for this kid's failure.

Tim Tebow 2011 - 13 starts, 8 wins, 2200 yards, 14 TDs, 6 INTs 72.9 passer rating. 

Geno Smith 2013 - 16 starts, 8 wins, 3050 yards, 12 TDs, 21 INTs, 66.5 passer rating. 

Smith is currently 2nd string QB for Seattle, and Tebow has been out of the league for 6 years.  Something's not right here...

I think it has a lot to do with the media circus that he would have brought with him. Pretty unfair honestly.

[7DnBrnc53]

26 minutes ago, frenchie said:

I don't know if he would have been great, but it still aggravates me the way he was screwed over.

In 2011, Tebow took over a 1-4 team; then won 7 of 8 games; got into the playoffs as the 6th seed; wins a playoff game by upsetting the #3 seed.  

His reward?  Getting replaced, then traded less than 2 months later.  Sorry, but any young QB that has that kind of success, regardless of how it gets accomplished, doesn't get treated this way.  Yes, it wasn't pretty, but the media crapped on this guy every chance they got; it was disgusting.  Some of the things said about Tebow would have prompted firings, had they been said about other QBs.  I will always look at Tebow's NFL career as a total hit job by the media.  I don't know what was going on internally in the league, and I'm sure they have a role in this, but the media was absolutely praying for this kid's failure.

Tim Tebow 2011 - 13 starts, 8 wins, 2200 yards, 14 TDs, 6 INTs 72.9 passer rating. 

Geno Smith 2013 - 16 starts, 8 wins, 3050 yards, 12 TDs, 21 INTs, 66.5 passer rating. 

Smith is currently 2nd string QB for Seattle, and Tebow has been out of the league for 6 years.  Something's not right here...

Bill Walsh could have made Tebow into a good QB. It's too bad he got sick and died when he did.

Also, some other topics:

1. Nobody playing QB (maybe with the exception of Rodgers) the last 15-18 years should be considered for GOAT. QB's have had it easier than ever.

2. Paul Warfield is the best WR ever.

3. Bill Walsh didn't invent the WCO, or was the first to use a short passing offense in lieu of the running game. Fran Tarkenton did that with the 1967 Giants (he has even said that the "WCO" started in New York in 1967).

[Bolts223]

6 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Current Rodgers is overrated. Peak Rodgers was not. But you could never get over that being the anti-Rodgers, pro-T-Jack/Tebow evaluator you were.

I still think it's definitely not a given that he is top-10 all time if you just look at the body of his career. He had a great peak but at this point I think he's the 4th best QB of his era in terms of overall career. I'd put Brady, Manning and Brees ahead of him. He can surpass Brees if he has resurgence that includes a few more years of MVP caliber play, but right now I'd give the edge to Brees.

That's not even to mention guys from other eras I would put ahead of him like Montana, Elway, Marino, Unitas, Graham, etc.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Bolts223