candyman93 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 17 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Nice Review of what's been going on by Football Outsiders #1 and Jake Burns #2: Football Outsider's Breakdown: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2019/film-room-baker-mayfield Jake Burns OBR: https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Article/OBR-Film-Room-Baker-Mayfield-one-read-QB-Fact-or-Fiction-136729182/ It’s what I’ve kinda feared. The game is too fast for Baker right now. It’s why he can’t even make the simple passes. Freddie needs to slow the game down for him before his confidence gets shattered. Treat Baker the way Dallas treats Dak. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Bonanza23 said: Go back and watch his college film. He can read defenses. He can go thru his reads. I like Baker and still do, but you need to show me where he has been able to read NFL defenses this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruceb Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bonanza23 said: Go back and watch his college film. It shows a lot of gimmicks and schemes. He ain't a drop-back QB like they are trying with play calls to force him to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candyman93 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, bruceb said: It shows a lot of gimmicks and schemes. He ain't a drop-back QB like they are trying with play calls to force him to be. I think he can be, but he’s not right now. He needs play action to open up passing lanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonanza23 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, candyman93 said: I like Baker and still do, but you need to show me where he has been able to read NFL defenses this year. It’s hard to do when you get the play call in late with no time. Also hard to adjust when there’s guys in your face from the get go. It’s why I said go watch the film last year. I’m convinced the best of the best couldn’t handle what Baker is dealing with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonanza23 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, bruceb said: It shows a lot of gimmicks and schemes. He ain't a drop-back QB like they are trying with play calls to force him to be. He still went thru progressions and presnap reads. More than that he had elite processing power and accuracy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruceb Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Bonanza23 said: He still went thru progressions and presnap reads. More than that he had elite processing power and accuracy. Have you read and watched @Mind Character's Jake Burns piece? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 People say “read defenses” like it’s one thing, with no varying degrees. Just because a guy can make a presnap read and go one, two from there doesn’t mean he can see that same defense and read 1-4 on route tree. “Reading defenses” isn’t a one degree of difficulty type of thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonanza23 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, bruceb said: Have you read and watched @Mind Character's Jake Burns piece? Don’t need to to see talent in a qb. I’ve learned to evaluate qbs on my own many years ago and take what the “gurus” say as potentially useful information. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, candyman93 said: It’s what I’ve kinda feared. The game is too fast for Baker right now. It’s why he can’t even make the simple passes. Freddie needs to slow the game down for him before his confidence gets shattered. Treat Baker the way Dallas treats Dak. Indeed. Absolutely. We're putting too much on him right now as if he's already arrived as a down-in down-out elite NFL QB that should/can shoulder the heavy lifting and carry an entire offense. Wildest thing is the fact that we actually have the personnel with the skill sets to take pressure and mental strain off of Baker with a quick-rhythm game. We need to treat Baker like he's a young second year Quarterback and give him lay-ups to get him going with confidence. Soon thereafter his natural talent can take over. It's amazing how coaches like Belichick, Payton, Shanahan, McVay, Reid, make it so easy for their QBs by designing lay-up after layp-up to get their QBs going, creating mismatches that allow their personnel to win quick and their QB with a repertoire of quick solutions to whatever problem the defense presents. Each of those offenses revolve around the quick game with either quick/easy throws to the RB, quick slants to WRs, and the unwavering commitment to the running game as the engine that propels the passing game. There was a Patriots reunion interview a few years back where they asked Josh McDaniels and Bill O'Brien what's Belichicks influence on the team's offensive philosophy. I'll never forget what they both said in the shared interview. It was something along the lines of O'Brien first saying: "Never make anything harder than it needs to be. That's what we're tasked to do. Create paint by numbers easy solutions and throws for all QBs no matter what their experience." Then McDaniels chimed in "Coach' wants to scheme clear and easy reads; find the path of least resistance and take it every time." They went on to talk about how such things make up 70-60% of the offense and the rest of it is carried by the individual talent and collective ability of the QB, OL, and playmakers. Most troubling for me with Baker is #1 We don't create enough lay-ups for Baker whether that be RB pass or quick game and #2 that Baker is missing the lay-ups that he is given; missing those things that should be routine reads and throws; one's that he should be able to diagnose what's going on pre-snap and adjust accordingly. It's one thing to be confused by exotic or unexpected defensive calls; it's a whole other thing entirely to miss or be confused by basic/base calls and things you should know are coming. I don't know what is going on with him with the lay-ups he's missing. It is so strange and odd. I never believed he was elite at processing or had elite-level film room commitment based on what a lot of scouts had to say despite popular opinion being otherwise, but Baker's good enough and is a committed hard worker enough to where it doesn't make much sense as to why he's missing so much even when the Offense isn't struggling and the play call is sound. The hope that I have is that Baker is at a crossroads in his career. His natural talent has taken him as far as he can go. He's on a level with thousands of hardworkers with numerous coaches and players being elite hard workers and investing countless hours in the game. He's not the otherworldly instinctual player and arm talent player of Favre and Mahomes; he's not the athlete Russell Wilson is. Drew Brees is his blueprint for success, but that will take another step and leap in becoming obsessed with the game; relentless in watching film with his WRs; having them run through countless scenarios and routes; incessantly drilling footwork and mechanics in the off-season and season. Here's to hoping Baker wants it and goes and gets it like Brees. Edited October 11, 2019 by Mind Character 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Bonanza23 said: Don’t need to to see talent in a qb. I’ve learned to evaluate qbs on my own many years ago and take what the “gurus” say as potentially useful information. What has been is not always. Baker may have done things one way before at times but isn't now. Those articles aren't "gurus" making stuff up so that they can appear to be smart, but they are attempts at analysis of the situation by using the film as a guide. The film/play breakdowns can leave room for different interpretations of what's going on or attirbutions of blame, but I'm telling you man they're both sound snap shot analysis on Baker all leading to one point: Baker is not seeing the game clearly consistently, he's missing layups and easy to diagnose plays, and Freddie has been putting Baker in losing situations a lot but not all the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt27j Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 What works against him too is that he is not mobile. A lot of these other QBs having at least some success (Allen, Jones, Murray) have the threat of their legs. Baker and Rosen not only do not have that, but their missing the Wentz/Darnold/Minshew factor of escaping tackles in the pocket. Baker has some ability but it's not something to be relied upon. All that being said, Mind, others, the Browns, and everyone else knows for Baker to succeed he is best when being decisive and throwing that 1st read. Same thing with Derek Carr. Came out, threw his first read and found success. Kind of fell off after that once they got Cooper. Now he seems to be doing fine again since he has to know where and who to throw the ball to because no one is going to be wide open on talent alone. It is a risky proposition but if you need to force the ball to OBJ to be decisive then do it. Throwing it in tight windows, downfield doubles, that's one way to gain confidence or in the least not be so critical of yourself making mistakes. Right now Landry is the only other dependable option. Do what you have to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgX Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 33 minutes ago, matt27j said: What works against him too is that he is not mobile. A lot of these other QBs having at least some success (Allen, Jones, Murray) have the threat of their legs. Baker and Rosen not only do not have that, but their missing the Wentz/Darnold/Minshew factor of escaping tackles in the pocket. Baker has some ability but it's not something to be relied upon. All that being said, Mind, others, the Browns, and everyone else knows for Baker to succeed he is best when being decisive and throwing that 1st read. Same thing with Derek Carr. Came out, threw his first read and found success. Kind of fell off after that once they got Cooper. Now he seems to be doing fine again since he has to know where and who to throw the ball to because no one is going to be wide open on talent alone. It is a risky proposition but if you need to force the ball to OBJ to be decisive then do it. Throwing it in tight windows, downfield doubles, that's one way to gain confidence or in the least not be so critical of yourself making mistakes. Right now Landry is the only other dependable option. Do what you have to do. He's certainly not as athletic as the guys you mentioned but he's not a statue either - he can run for 10 or so yards when there's space in front of him. He did a few times last year and even then I believed he didn't do so enough. Then this year he hasn't attempted to take off and run at all. His ability to move within and out of the pocket last year was part of the reason he was so good, but now he's either holding onto the ball for too long or is leaving the pocket when he doesn't need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrownsDog23 Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 https://youtu.be/7O5W5su_vGo pretty interesting breakdown. I think play calling is clearly the biggest issue with the offense IMO 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruceb Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, BrownsDog23 said: https://youtu.be/7O5W5su_vGo pretty interesting breakdown. I think play calling is clearly the biggest issue with the offense IMO Agree. Without a doubt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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