Whats up with Baker

[BrownLeader]

11 hours ago, Mind Character said:

If the offensive line is struggling (and they have a lot this year), he can transcend the issues with blitz avoidance and making plays off platform.

If his WRs aren't getting separation or having route issues, he can create time and extend plays.

If the RB running game isn't working, he can manufactures his own effective running attack.

If the Defense is struggling, his moving the chains conversion rate and methodical drives keeps the opposing offense off the field and tilts time of possession in favor of the ravens.

Look at how his teammates talk about him and are amazed by him; look at how they believe that he'll get them to a win.

It's early in his career and we don't know for sure where Lamar, Baker, Sam, Allen, etc will be in a few years, but right now Lamar Jackson absolutely is a transcendent QB.

If he pulls a Kordell Stewart in the playoffs, all that is out the door.

14 hours ago, Mind Character said:

To me, there are only 6 Transcendent, Tractor (Not Trailer) QBs that Have Ability to consistently transcend deficiencies around them and elevate the players around them:

 

1.) Russell Wilson

2.) Deshaun Watson

3.) Patrick Mahomes 

4.) Aaron Rodgers (fading some)

5.) Lamar Jackson (rising)

6.) Kyler Murray (will be there translating to wins by the end or year 2)

The rest fall in to being either elite, good, average, or below average Trailer QBs who depend a tremendous and out-sized amount on what surrounds them.

You forgot Tom Brady & Drew Brees. And get Kyler Murray out of there.

 

[mtmmike]

Considering that baker has more yards and touchdowns as Aaron Rodgers,Patrick mahomes,and Ben roethlisberger you better rethink that list.

Also baker has Landry on a career best season

your posting makes me sick

[Mind Character]

3 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

If he pulls a Kordell Stewart in the playoffs, all that is out the door.

You forgot Tom Brady & Drew Brees. And get Kyler Murray out of there.

 

1.) 1 playoff series wouldn't seal the deal for what Lamar is quite yet though and Lamar is already exponentially a better player than Kordell Stewart.

2.) Brees and Brady at this point in there careers cannot transcend whatever is around them.and are more elite among trailer players. That is, as long as there's good to great things around them they can operate at a high level. I never said Kyler Murray was better than Drew Brees but as is Murray has transcendent abilities to overcome surrounding talent deficiencies and terrible OLine play they're done.I definitely can see the argument for Brees still being a Tractor/Transcendent player, but Brady looks like more of a great/elite Trailer player.this year via his play.

43 minutes ago, mtmmike said:

Considering that baker has more yards and touchdowns as Aaron Rodgers,Patrick mahomes,and Ben roethlisberger you better rethink that list.

Also baker has Landry on a career best season

your posting makes me sick

Boxscore stats don't matter all that much over play quality but even still Rodgers has 22TDs: 2 INTs and more yards: Mahomes 20TDs: 2INTS also has more than Baker in fewer games in fewer games.

Big Ben is still a great QB but I didn't have him on the Tractor/Transcendent list in the first place.

[mtmmike]

baker mayfield has more yards and more td then Jackson plus he is 1-0

verses jackson

mahomes has fewer yards and more touchdowns then mayfield I am not even saying that baker is better than those two but I am not advocating cut mayfield and draft the 5th available quite like some want.

[mtmmike]

Oh buy the way I totally enjoy your posts all the time.

[brownie man]

1 hour ago, mtmmike said:

baker mayfield has more yards and more td then Jackson plus he is 1-0

verses jackson

mahomes has fewer yards and more touchdowns then mayfield I am not even saying that baker is better than those two but I am not advocating cut mayfield and draft the 5th available quite like some want.

Dude what are you talking about 

[mtmmike]

Oh well.

how come you did not say last year mayfield was going to be a below 500 qb

[mtmmike]

7 hours ago, BrownLeader said:

If he pulls a Kordell Stewart in the playoffs, all that is out the door.

You forgot Tom Brady & Drew Brees. And get Kyler Murray out of there.

 

You forgot hall of fame level wr having his best year yet.

landry now has more receptions then anybody ever at this time and he has elevated

his play to new levels

this means baker has elevated those around him

It also means maybe obj has his career year next year.

[FGK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8nXTjEqhI&t=1486s

This is the Brett Kollman analysis on the offense last year and this year. He said it was really weird that both season were basically mirror images of each other. Both years the first 8-10 weeks were very high % deep passing concepts with a lot of plays with no route breaking within 15 yards. Then they shift it to more quick passing focused in the middle of the year and everything improves. It's just a total mystery why Freddie decided to dump everything that was working for the first half of this season.

His conclusion on the Baker part was basically that he drops DEEP on 5/7 step drops because of his height to get extra visual space. But (especially with putrid OTs) that creates easy angles for DEs. So in a deep-passing based offense, he is toast.

[ditchdigger]

4 minutes ago, mtmmike said:

You forgot hall of fame level wr having his best year yet.

landry now has more receptions then anybody ever at this time and he has elevated

his play to new levels

this means baker has elevated those around him

It also means maybe obj has his career year next year.

[matt27j]

Bottom line is too early to tell anything with Baker all things considered. 

We want to see him carve up one of the better defenses, but we just don't have the ol for that yet nor a full playbook. Watch the saints games and see all the sideline throws and quick hitches that we rarely throw. Not to mention the interior ol in front of him rarely break their wall or even get pushed back.

A lot has been asked of baker. Overly aggressive playcalling and penalties had led to a lot of 2nd and 3rd n longs. You can't ask that of any qb.

He's been dominant against defenses he should. He's kept us in the other games. He's got A+ accuracy at all levels of the field. It's just consistency. 

I was not a baker fan. But I've only seen that level of accuracy and velocity out of rodgers and wilson. It's why he made guys like Perrimen look good. 

 

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

23 hours ago, freakygeniuskid said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8nXTjEqhI&t=1486s

This is the Brett Kollman analysis on the offense last year and this year. He said it was really weird that both season were basically mirror images of each other. Both years the first 8-10 weeks were very high % deep passing concepts with a lot of plays with no route breaking within 15 yards. Then they shift it to more quick passing focused in the middle of the year and everything improves. It's just a total mystery why Freddie decided to dump everything that was working for the first half of this season.

His conclusion on the Baker part was basically that he drops DEEP on 5/7 step drops because of his height to get extra visual space. But (especially with putrid OTs) that creates easy angles for DEs. So in a deep-passing based offense, he is toast.

When people talk of him needing to go over and above to compensate for being short, I really want them have a dude who 6’1 or whatever Baker is stand next to a guy who is 6’2, which is just fine by all accounts and has proven so repeatedly, and tell me just how much they think inch or so actually matters.  It’s an asinine argument.

As far as the long drops and long routes, it sounds awfully similar to what TB was running last year tbh.

[Kiwibrown]

One thing that has been understated this year in defense of baker is the failure of our receiving group outside of jarvis, callaway was a bust all year, higgins has fallen off the face of the earth, and no one rlse has stepped up. Our tes have been okay but have not threatened defenses. 

Multiple drops for ints a d not helping him out much. The responsibility i am sure falls on coaching as much as the players. 

Also i think we miss perriman, the dude could take the top off a defense 

[Mind Character]

On 12/6/2019 at 6:53 PM, freakygeniuskid said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx8nXTjEqhI&t=1486s

This is the Brett Kollman analysis on the offense last year and this year. He said it was really weird that both season were basically mirror images of each other. Both years the first 8-10 weeks were very high % deep passing concepts with a lot of plays with no route breaking within 15 yards. Then they shift it to more quick passing focused in the middle of the year and everything improves. It's just a total mystery why Freddie decided to dump everything that was working for the first half of this season.

His conclusion on the Baker part was basically that he drops DEEP on 5/7 step drops because of his height to get extra visual space. But (especially with putrid OTs) that creates easy angles for DEs. So in a deep-passing based offense, he is toast.

Great video to link; I saw this when it dropped and it changed my entire outlook on Baker's future for the positive based on some follow-up conversations I had with friends about it.

It's really quite remarkable how clear it is to accurately analyze what Baker's skillset is and isn't making it ridiculously frustrating to repeatedly watch the play-calls and design not favor Baker's or the OLine's strengths. It's puzzling.

Kollman says it the best when he says "late feet equal late eyes which equals late throws." Funniest thing is one of my old college roommates who played in the CFL and now works for a sports analytics firm has been hammering that "Baker's punch drop is going to be the end of him unless he switches it up" since the very beginning of his rookie year. My focus has mostly been on other aspects of his mechanics. lol. 

It's crazy how much slower his mechanical operation is to get to his drop depth as well as how deep his drop depth is often kills OL blocking angles on the edge.

After I sent this video to my old roommate, he sent me back a jaw-dropping statistic that he and his co-workers have been working all year on to provide a new timing metric to sell to the NFL Next Gen Stat Directors. It's likely going to be a for pay stats package like PFF but one component is drop depth time. He sent me this:" The Data represents a 9 game sample size this season. Compared to the top 12 QBR QBs, Baker Mayfield's Average Drop Time to Drop Depth is 0.687 seconds longer on average for 3 step drops relative to the field, 0.704 seconds longer on average for 3.5 step drops (slight start/end hitch) relative to the field, and 1.422 seconds longer on average for 5 step drops or more relative to the field."

In a word or two: F-IN Mind Blowing statistic. And it honestly it gives me so much hope for Baker's future. Because unlike what Kollman suggested, I actually think can change his drop mechanics without it screwing him up and that he can change to a staggered quick drop without a punch step like Tom Brady or at least a quick punch quick shuffle drop like Drew Brees. 

It means that if Baker can cut his drop depth time to closer to the top 12 QBs his eyes, vision, and timing could allow him to take the next step.

Play-action and working from under center literally saves it all. It magically fixes everything. We've all been saying that as amateur football analyst and analytics enthusiasts. From under center, Baker is further up in the pocket when he hits is drop depth protect the outside rush angles and neutralizing gap penetrating DLineman that don't shoot gaps because of the treat of the run. In the end, Baker has space to work and let his talent shine. His eyes and footwork are forced to be on time because of the rhythm of play-action.

The play-action and really under-center numbers are insanely different from that shotgun 3-wide garbage Freddie's been going to all year.  Coming out of college, tons of people thought Baker needed to operate out of shotgun exclusively to have success. Turns out the truth is just the opposite.

Right now, Play-action is the quick fix until Baker can make the mechanical adjustments; it's the schematic fix. Kollman said it best again "Play action caters to Baker's psychology  regarding how he responds to the threat of pressure" and it creates the rhythm and timing element that's lacking our cold shotgun attack.

Ultimately, there's a path forward to success. Freddie needs to recreate his attack to focus on creativity from under center that heavily relies on play-action, RT/RG and to a lesser extent LT need upgrading, Baker needs to quicken his drop mechanical operation and/or get rid of his methodical punch step, and Baker and the skill players need to invest elite level work in developing chemistry and understanding.

There's hope. It's not broken to the point where there's no way forward. 

Can they do it? Sh*t .. I really really F-in hope so. There's never been a bigger off-season moment in recent Browns history. It's time to rise to the occasion.

 

10 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

When people talk of him needing to go over and above to compensate for being short, I really want them have a dude who 6’1 or whatever Baker is stand next to a guy who is 6’2, which is just fine by all accounts and has proven so repeatedly, and tell me just how much they think inch or so actually matters.  It’s an asinine argument.

As far as the long drops and long routes, it sounds awfully similar to what TB was running last year tbh.

tbh sounds exactly like the Bruce Arians and Todd Haley play-book. So, it probably more accurate to say sounds like TB this year.

Monken with TB was more about the quick passing game as a consistent jab at a defense followed by explosive hay-maker deep strike down the field shots. Their 9th in DVOA OE was all based on having the 24th ranked Running Game based on DVOA Run Offensive Efficiency. Monken himself lamented about their inability to run last year. If our offense was like TBs last year, this year would've been a fun ride imo

Edited December 8, 2019 by Mind Character

[candyman93]

I want Baker in a play action heavy offense. The offensive line and Freddie have done him no favors.

 

We need to treat him like a young QB still learning.

Edited December 8, 2019 by candyman93