The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Especially when you consider the cap savings....

(I think most of us with gladly have Joseph over Heath from a talent standpoint)

... Heath for $3,600,000 or Joseph for $1,188,125???

(Eric Reed could be had for probably the veteran minimum.... still/right now)  I think we really blew our load early signing Heath... 3.6M!?! there are always equally good S’s in FA for under a million.

https://overthecap.com/player/jeff-heath/2525/

Joseph signed for 1yr, $2,431,250 with Cleveland: 1.5M base salary, .5M SB, $281.25K total from Game Roster Bonuses, and miscellaneous $150k bonus (workout bonus?).

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/karl-joseph-18962/

We could have given him a base salary of $2.16M (vet min of 910k and 1.25M cap credit) plus $137.5K signing bonus (max allowed if getting minimum veteran salary credit) plus 250k in weekly roster bonuses (only 9 game bonuses would be LBTE, this only costing $140,625 versus the salary cap).... totalling $2,547,500 in compensation (116.25k more than Cleveland) but would only have a have a cap hit of  $1,188,125 (910k salary, 137.5k SB, 140.625k roster bonus LTBE).

Maybe Joseph just wanted a fresh start and starting job with a new team, IDK.  But I’d definitely would have been nice to have him back instead of signing Heath AND save $1.4M+.

Hopefully next year we can use this credit to resign David Sharpe, Nicholas Morrow, Erick Harris, or Marquel Lee.  All seem like they could be perfect candidates for this cap credit, although Harris and Morrow might command too much money to use it on them. (you only get a total cap credit of 1.25M but can use it on one player or split it up amongst 2 guys)

I’m still holding out hope we resign Dion Jordan! I realize the likelihood of it happening is significantly less with every day but I’m sticking to it, lol.  I really like how he played last year and think he can be really useful for us.

If we could sign Dion Jordan and a LB (maybe they beat out Lee for SAM spot, if not their depth) like Nigel Bradham... or even Will Compton... i think those moves would pay off.

This is the MO of this team.  We let KJO walk because he does not fit what Guenther wants the same way we sat him in 2018 after looking really good in 2017.  Guenther will probably lose his job and Marinelli or another coordinator will come in that knows how to use KJO in a productive way but the defensive players will struggle because they now do not fit the scheme.  Half the board will call for heads to roll why the other will say we need to give the new coordinator a couple years to accumulate players that fit his scheme.  Once we do he will get fired for to little to late and the cycle will repeat itself.  We have been doing this for most of my adult life.  If Gruden was not such an egotistical @$$ clown Pagano would have this defensive in the top ten right now.  Just my opinion but I am over Guenther and Gruden.

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

This is the MO of this team.  We let KJO walk because he does not fit what Guenther wants the same way we sat him in 2018 after looking really good in 2017.  Guenther will probably lose his job and Marinelli or another coordinator will come in that knows how to use KJO in a productive way but the defensive players will struggle because they now do not fit the scheme.  Half the board will call for heads to roll why the other will say we need to give the new coordinator a couple years to accumulate players that fit his scheme.  Once we do he will get fired for to little to late and the cycle will repeat itself.  We have been doing this for most of my adult life.  If Gruden was not such an egotistical @$$ clown Pagano would have this defensive in the top ten right now.  Just my opinion but I am over Guenther and Gruden.

Your spot on about how we never use players correctly when we draft them (albeit we usually do reach for them.... which is a double whammy).... and now one of the few picks that actually proven to have talent was let to walk away for next to nothing.... and we chose to sign a lesser talent for 2.5-3x the cost.

If Guenther doesn’t workout, we absolutely must find a TOP Def. Coordinator and sign him to a long-term deal and commit to him  for at a minimum 3 years.  I never was blow away by Guenther, he seemed average at best.  I am glad though Gruden has stuck with him... hopefully with some actual talent he can be successful with his scheme.  It’s absolutely not fair to judge him with the absolute lack of talent he has had.  His Double A-Gap scheme couldn’t be fully run with the players we had.  He scaled his scheme and play calling back a LOT, but this year he has plenty of talent so he better succeed or he has to go.  
Luckily, I think the players we have on Defense all can work in any scheme.  If we do replace Guenther we should choose someone who runs a 4-3 with press man coverages though.  

I think you can’t draft players in rounds 1-3 if their THAT scheme dependent (unless their an amazing athlete and prospect... for instance Brian Burns would be worth a 1st round pick by a 3-4 team... if they switch to 4-3 at worst he’s a good situational rusher and/or can adjust to OLB, it’s not optimal but it’s not the end of the world).  Just like Joseph should never have been taken at 14 because they require a particular scheme to be successful due to their limitations.  However, a guy like Abram really can succeed in any scheme.

I am still optimistic that with Littleton and Kwiatkowski at LB + the FA additions and development of our ‘18-‘20 draft picks at DL and DB we should be able to run the scheme as he wants.  Sure, it may not be a top 10 defense but it should be in the 13-20 range.  If we switch to a drastically different scheme in ‘21 it would real stagnate the development of the ‘19+’20 draft class and essentially drive the ‘18 class to walk in FA.

Unless Key, Hall, Hurst (and FA is signing Collins) finally hit their max potential this year (im optimistic that can happen).... I still think we are 2 DLmen and a FS away from a top defense. But that certainly is achievable with some FA money and some day 1+2 ‘21 draft picks.  I’m glad we brought in Marinelli because I think the production of the DL will be instrumental in the success of the overall Defense.  If we can just get Key to become a solid 3rd DE capable of 6-7 sacks, Hall can be a solid 3Tech run stuffer with some pass rush, Hurst can take the next step as a pass rusher and give us 6-7 sacks, Collins progresses a bit, Littleton isn’t a liability in run game, and Randall is consistent and solid- doesn’t need to be spectacular..... then we should have a solid D.

 

[Jerry]

8 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Your spot on about how we never use players correctly when we draft them (albeit we usually do reach for them.... which is a double whammy).... and now one of the few picks that actually proven to have talent was let to walk away for next to nothing.... and we chose to sign a lesser talent for 2.5-3x the cost.

If Guenther doesn’t workout, we absolutely must find a TOP Def. Coordinator and sign him to a long-term deal and commit to him  for at a minimum 3 years.  I never was blow away by Guenther, he seemed average at best.  I am glad though Gruden has stuck with him... hopefully with some actual talent he can be successful with his scheme.  It’s absolutely not fair to judge him with the absolute lack of talent he has had.  His Double A-Gap scheme couldn’t be fully run with the players we had.  He scaled his scheme and play calling back a LOT, but this year he has plenty of talent so he better succeed or he has to go.  
Luckily, I think the players we have on Defense all can work in any scheme.  If we do replace Guenther we should choose someone who runs a 4-3 with press man coverages though.  

I think you can’t draft players in rounds 1-3 if their THAT scheme dependent (unless their an amazing athlete and prospect... for instance Brian Burns would be worth a 1st round pick by a 3-4 team... if they switch to 4-3 at worst he’s a good situational rusher and/or can adjust to OLB, it’s not optimal but it’s not the end of the world).  Just like Joseph should never have been taken at 14 because they require a particular scheme to be successful due to their limitations.  However, a guy like Abram really can succeed in any scheme.

I am still optimistic that with Littleton and Kwiatkowski at LB + the FA additions and development of our ‘18-‘20 draft picks at DL and DB we should be able to run the scheme as he wants.  Sure, it may not be a top 10 defense but it should be in the 13-20 range.  If we switch to a drastically different scheme in ‘21 it would real stagnate the development of the ‘19+’20 draft class and essentially drive the ‘18 class to walk in FA.

Unless Key, Hall, Hurst (and FA is signing Collins) finally hit their max potential this year (im optimistic that can happen).... I still think we are 2 DLmen and a FS away from a top defense. But that certainly is achievable with some FA money and some day 1+2 ‘21 draft picks.  I’m glad we brought in Marinelli because I think the production of the DL will be instrumental in the success of the overall Defense.  If we can just get Key to become a solid 3rd DE capable of 6-7 sacks, Hall can be a solid 3Tech run stuffer with some pass rush, Hurst can take the next step as a pass rusher and give us 6-7 sacks, Collins progresses a bit, Littleton isn’t a liability in run game, and Randall is consistent and solid- doesn’t need to be spectacular..... then we should have a solid D.

 

I think Carl Nassib will be our 3rd DE after Ferrell and Crosby that will get us those 6-7 sacks this season.  Hopefully Ferrell takes a step forward and double his sack production this year.  I'm pretty happy with our DE situation.  I think the next DL to fall those is PJ Hall.  After seeing him called out here and there, I think he will be falling in the depth chart over the next couple of seasons, and then eventually shown the door.

[jimkelly02]

27 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I think Carl Nassib will be our 3rd DE after Ferrell and Crosby that will get us those 6-7 sacks this season.  Hopefully Ferrell takes a step forward and double his sack production this year.  I'm pretty happy with our DE situation.  I think the next DL to fall those is PJ Hall.  After seeing him called out here and there, I think he will be falling in the depth chart over the next couple of seasons, and then eventually shown the door.

Sorry I just misspoke when I called Key a “3rd DE”.... I just meant he needs to get his play up to a solid backup pass rusher.

Ive seen enough flashes from Hall and without anything behind him worthy of a roster spot I still think he makes the team. I throughly he was just being motivated and pushed by the comments Mayock made early in the offseason.

[raidr4life]

Kjo was out when they drafted Abrams it really is that simple, he was a Reggie pick, If Abrams doesnt get hurt Kjo probably wouldn't have played much. Kjo I'm sure also wanted a chance to start and earn a bigger contract. Now as far as the defense goes Guenther needs to have this D looking solid, or he's out, and I dont  buy that it will take 3 years to get a new DC players for their system when every year team hire new coordinators and they immediately improve, just need to hire someone legit.

[Humble_Beast]

Abram is basically a bigger Joseph. Both physical SS, who are good in the box and big hitters. Writing on the wall for Joseph once we drafted Abram, should have traded him. Maybe that was the plan but Abram was hurt so we really needed Joseph. I always liked KoJo, wish him the best. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Humble_Beast

[Humble_Beast]

I still don’t know about drafting a SS in the first tho. We did it twice within a few years lmao 

[Turnobili]

KJ was very clearly a SS who was phyically incapable of defending TE's... which is a big part of what SS's are asked to do. However, he still had a pretty explosive skill set and it probably would take some creative coaching to get him very productive. I do think he has the talent but PG neither had the ability nor the desire to ever make it work.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Turnobili

[jimkelly02]

8 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

I still don’t know about drafting a SS in the first tho. We did it twice within a few years lmao 

The big difference is Abram is capable of being worth a late 1st and Joseph never was capable of being worth #14.  Joseph, as much as I like him, was always going to be an undersized Safety without elite range to play FS.  Abram can, and I believe, he a monster SS at the LOS, cover TEs and RBs, and has enough coverage skills to play FS or “just Safety in a defense like ours that doesn’t distinguish SS and FS”.

i don’t understand the whole “was a Reggie pick, Gruden wanted to bring in his own guys” logic that @raiders4life mentioned (he didn’t invent that logic just repeated what’s been said by many).  I say this because when a new staff comes in they obviously bring in their guys for the most part so they can install starters to run their specific scheme, but Joseph can do everything Heath can do and better, so why swap them out and pay more for Heath.  Joseph was a good teammate and could have been a valueable 3rd Safety for us, IMO.  It’s not like Heath is the ideal Safety in Guenther’s system.

[raidr4life]

5 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

The big difference is Abram is capable of being worth a late 1st and Joseph never was capable of being worth #14.  Joseph, as much as I like him, was always going to be an undersized Safety without elite range to play FS.  Abram can, and I believe, he a monster SS at the LOS, cover TEs and RBs, and has enough coverage skills to play FS or “just Safety in a defense like ours that doesn’t distinguish SS and FS”.

i don’t understand the whole “was a Reggie pick, Gruden wanted to bring in his own guys” logic that @raiders4life mentioned (he didn’t invent that logic just repeated what’s been said by many).  I say this because when a new staff comes in they obviously bring in their guys for the most part so they can install starters to run their specific scheme, but Joseph can do everything Heath can do and better, so why swap them out and pay more for Heath.  Joseph was a good teammate and could have been a valueable 3rd Safety for us, IMO.  It’s not like Heath is the ideal Safety in Guenther’s system.

Yes most coaches like to bring in their own  guys, but Gruden has purged the roster of pretty much all of Reggie's picks. Carr, Sharpe and Lee are the only guys left.

[Darbsk]

Saw this in another thread in NFL Gen from last season;

Now, I dont think it necessarily correlates with Carr's ability being supreme under pressure per se, probably has a lot to do with him getting the ball out quickly to relatively short targets or checking down when under pressure but it's interesting to see nonetheless.

[MrOaktown_56]

17 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

Abram is basically a bigger Joseph. Both physical SS, who are good in the box and big hitters. Writing on the wall for Joseph once we drafted Abram, should have traded him. Maybe that was the plan but Abram was hurt so we really needed Joseph. I always liked KoJo, wish him the best. 

Abram has the size and physicality to press safeties though and he has the strength and blitzing ability to play situational LB. He's not Jamal Adams, but I'd use him the same way.

[oakdb36]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Now, I dont think it necessarily correlates with Carr's ability being supreme under pressure per se, probably has a lot to do with him getting the ball out quickly to relatively short targets or checking down when under pressure but it's interesting to see nonetheless.

It means he's doing what he should for the most part when he's pressured. His rating when clean should be higher though.

[NCOUGHMAN]

3 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

It means he's doing what he should for the most part when he's pressured. His rating when clean should be higher though.

Russ will is crazy 

[Darbsk]

5 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

3 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

It means he's doing what he should for the most part when he's pressured. His rating when clean should be higher though.

Russ will is crazy

That's the guy that stands out and whilst I won't put all my stock into statistics I think he's clearly the best QB in the NFL at this moment in time. Doing more with less, love the guy. Dak, Ryan and Allen gave some pretty notable stats too with big differences.