Future QB Discussion

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, AZBearsFan said:

That they’re openly looking to trade him to the highest bidder suggests that they’ve already made the decision that they’re going to spend their developmental resources on Hurts or someone they draft at #6, so the restructure for relief angle doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I don't think trading him this year is a sure thing (which is also supported by the media).  Philly is asking too much for Wentz and nobody is buying it.  They don't believe in Wentz to invest that much in him. Especially when they know the Eagles are racing against time otherwise it's going to cost them that extra 10M  (3 weeks--March 3rd).  

Trying to sell a disgruntled QB who is coming off a terrible year at a high price is not going to work. 

If they are dead set on trading him this year then their best bet would be to restructure Wentz contract and THEN try to trade him and they would get alot more serious offers than they're currently getting. 

Wentz doesn't have much leverage here considering the projected arrow on his career right now that is plummeting and has been for 2 years now.   They could easily sell it to him by saying "you can compete for the starting job (even tho they know he isn't) and may the best man win.  If you don't win then you can sit and we'll try to trade you before the trade deadline to a desperate team, or you have to wait until next year (where his worth will drop significantly). 

2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

The reason PHI would potentially agree to pay the $10M bonus to facilitate a trade of Wentz despite it being less favorable for their cap is simple - to procure higher draft capital from a team (like ours) who also have cap problems.

 I don't think it's smart for Philly (which is why they started searching for potential buyers early).  Nor do I think any team is going to give up what they are asking over a 10M bonus difference. I highly doubt the 10M is the difference maker above other factors.  Especially a bonus that they could easily renegotiate and prorate over the length of the contract (2or 3 year deal).  Instead of being 10M this year and a measly 1,000 next year, it could be 3.33M each year over the course of the contract. 

2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

You can pick out 15 plays from any player and make him look however you want in a 3 minute video. Clips like that only show you what the person making the video wants to show you. 

This isn't just about that video though.....it showed all last year. And I can't speak for everyone else but me personally have never believed that Wentz was the real deal and you can go back and check this site as a resource when I have been in many debates over this even when others thought he was. So this not just me jumping on the 2020 bandwagon. 

[JAF-N72EX]

8 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Fans have seemingly already decided that Wentz couldn’t possibly work out here if we make the move. Rational thought or optimism, even extremely guarded optimism, is already being dismissed as homerism and “Bear goggles.”

Not that any player could ever live up to Bears fans’ expectations for perfection at the position... 

Let's be honest here AZ. What makes you think Wentz can work here? Do you think Nagy is that good of a OC/play-caller? 

He has never elevated a QB.....in alot of way he's made them WORSE. Mitch in 2017 used to be a dead-eye shooter on the run and was never afraid to take shots past the sticks regardless of down and distance. It could be 3rd and 15 and he would always take the shot that got the ball past the sticks. Under Nagy he lost that. He became scared (because Nagy coddled him) and became a timid dog lost in Winter. The same could be said Foles.

[WindyCity]

12 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Fans have seemingly already decided that Wentz couldn’t possibly work out here if we make the move. Rational thought or optimism, even extremely guarded optimism, is already being dismissed as homerism and “Bear goggles.”

Not that any player could ever live up to Bears fans’ expectations for perfection at the position... 

He could. I would prefer to take a swing in the draft on someone with less baggage.

[WindyCity]

1 minute ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Let's be honest here AZ. What makes you think Wentz can work here? Do you think Nagy is that good of a OC/play-caller? 

He has never elevated a QB.....in alot of way he's made them WORSE. Mitch in 2017 used to be a dead-eye shooter on the run and was never afraid to take shots past the sticks regardless of down and distance. It could be 3rd and 15 and he would always take the shot that got the ball past the sticks. Under Nagy he lost that. He became scared (because Nagy coddled him) and became a timid dog lost in Winter. The same could be said Foles.

They are going to add a QB so the question becomes who has a better chance of success under Nagy, Wentz or a rookie.

Whoever it is needs to have a ton of natural talent because his HC is an offensive moron.

I lean rookie because he won’t have Wentz baggage and DeFilippo has had success with young QBs.

[JAF-N72EX]

Just now, WindyCity said:

They are going to add a QB so the question becomes who has a better chance of success under Nagy, Wentz or a rookie.

Whoever it is needs to have a ton of natural talent because his HC is an offensive moron.

I lean rookie because he won’t have Wentz baggage and DeFilippo has had success with young QBs.

I agree. I would prefer to go with Mac/Foles. If Mac bombs...so be it. The next regime can get their QB and figure out what to do with Mac and maybe get a 2nd like Arizona did with Rosen, or at worst we end up with a good backup QB. 

[AZBearsFan]

8 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

If they are dead set on trading him this year then their best bet would be to restructure Wentz contract and THEN try to trade him and they would get alot more serious offers than they're currently getting. 

Wentz still has to agree to any restructure though. NFL contracts aren’t contracts of adhesion. Any restructure that fortifies the Eagles’ ability to trade Wentz means Wentz accepting a significant paycut. Why would he ever agree to that? They can’t cut him - it would leave them $59M in dead cap with nothing to show for it. Even accepting a conditional 7 in 2023 in a trade saves them an extra $26M against their own cap. What does Wentz care what the Eagles get back for him in trade if he’s leaving the Eagles? He could absolutely do something for the team acquiring him (since they’re showing faith in him with the acquisition), not giving up guarantees so much as deferring them somewhat, but to help the team that’s giving up on him get more for shipping him out? No way. 

 

29 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

 I don't think it's smart for Philly (which is why they started searching for potential buyers early).  Nor do I think any team is going to give up what they are asking over a 10M bonus difference.

Not enough of a difference to justify what they’re asking right now, but possibly enough of a difference to squeeze a second pick out of a team or something like that. $10M in cap space this offseason over most others has a lot of value. 

 

26 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Let's be honest here AZ. What makes you think Wentz can work here? Do you think Nagy is that good of a OC/play-caller? 

He has never elevated a QB.....in alot of way he's made them WORSE. Mitch in 2017 used to be a dead-eye shooter on the run and was never afraid to take shots past the sticks regardless of down and distance. It could be 3rd and 15 and he would always take the shot that got the ball past the sticks. Under Nagy he lost that. He became scared (because Nagy coddled him) and became a timid dog lost in Winter. The same could be said Foles.

Well first off, Wentz 2017-19 was better than anything Mitch has ever been. Secondly, Wentz has excelled in Nagy’s offensive scheme where Mitch never has. Thirdly, even if he hadn’t, I’m not convinced that Nagy goes back to calling plays in 2021 after the offense was notably better under Lazor (especially the run game). I think it’s an assumption that Mitch became timid and gun shy because of Nagy and not because he’s just not very good and because he struggled to process what he was seeing (which I say as someone who has defended Mitch A LOT here). I have a lot of concerns about this staff’s ability to get anything out of anyone but I know without question that Wentz has high end NFL QB play in him. I don’t know that we can say that about anyone else reasonably available to us who could potentially be a long term option for us. 

[AZBearsFan]

39 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

They are going to add a QB so the question becomes who has a better chance of success under Nagy, Wentz or a rookie.

Whoever it is needs to have a ton of natural talent because his HC is an offensive moron.

I lean rookie because he won’t have Wentz baggage and DeFilippo has had success with young QBs.

Flip has also had success with Wentz, specifically. What Wentz did in 2017 under Flip and Reich was what got Flip his OC jobs in MIN in 2018 and JAX in 2019. Flip struggled as an OC but Cousins had a really strong season under his tutelage, as did Minshew in 2019. Wentz has far more natural ability than Cousins and Minshew. 

[JAF-N72EX]

45 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Wentz still has to agree to any restructure though. NFL contracts aren’t contracts of adhesion. Any restructure that fortifies the Eagles’ ability to trade Wentz means Wentz accepting a significant paycut. Why would he ever agree to that?

I already addressed this above.  If the Eagles do want to trade him then they have to act fact and it's going to hard to do with what they are asking without a restructured deal already in place. 

You seem to be under the impression that the ball is Wentz's court. And if you believe that then, fine. I can't change that opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

Wentz doesn't have much leverage here considering the projected arrow on his career right now that is plummeting and has been for 2 years now.   They could easily sell it to him by saying "you can compete for the starting job (even tho they know he isn't) and may the best man win.  If you don't win then you can sit and we'll try to trade you before the trade deadline to a desperate team, or you have to wait until next year (where his worth will drop significantly). 

45 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

1 hour ago, JAF-N72EX said:

 I don't think it's smart for Philly (which is why they started searching for potential buyers early).  Nor do I think any team is going to give up what they are asking over a 10M bonus difference.

Not enough of a difference to justify what they’re asking right now, but possibly enough of a difference to squeeze a second pick out of a team or something like that. $10M in cap space this offseason over most others has a lot of value. 

Okay. So let me get this straight (and I may be wrong here).

So what you are saying is that the Eagles know they aren't going to get their asking price (which teams never usually do in most cases) but if they did take on his 10M that it would make it a easier sell for a little lesser than the asking price (aka 1st to 2nd rd pick)? 

I could possibly buy that for a team like the Bears situation who are sitting at a late 1st. 

But again that's a risky approach because even with that type of offer there are going to be lesser teams interested which gives more leverage to those teams who are still left in the bidding war. 

45 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Well first off, Wentz 2017-19 was better than anything Mitch has ever been.

That's what people said about Cutler 10 years ago when they were enamored by his 4,000 yards passing and they also said the same thing about Foles less than a year ago. 

Bears fans need to stop comparing other QBs to the Bears terrible history of QBs in order to justify transactions.  We are the low bar when it comes to QBs.  

45 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Secondly, Wentz has excelled in Nagy’s offensive scheme where Mitch never has.

People were trying to sell this angle last year when we got Foles ---"he knows the offense'. Only the fools believed it. 

Wentz has never played in Nagy's offensive scheme. Despite what we were sold when Pace signed Nagy he has NEVER ran the same the same scheme as Pederson(Eagles) or Ried's (Chiefs).  Nagy's offense has no identity.  

45 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Thirdly, even if he hadn’t, I’m not convinced that Nagy goes back to calling plays in 2021 after the offense was notably better under Lazor (especially the run game). 

I doubt he gives up play-calling. This is his last hurrah and he knows it.

Last year his job was already in jeopardy and when the news broke about him "giving up play-calling" I didn't believe it one bit after just one game because I saw the same boneheaded plays and I knew there was no way Nagy's ego was going to put his job in the hands of someone else. Come to find out....that was true. He never really gave it up.  This year is it for him, he knows it's either fireworks or back of the unemployment line so there is no way he was going to hand it over. Although I wish he would. 

45 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

I have a lot of concerns about this staff’s ability to get anything out of anyone but I know without question that Wentz has high end NFL QB play in him. I don’t know that we can say that about anyone else reasonably available to us who could potentially be a long term option for us. 

It comes down to this IMO.

Is Wentz better for us as a starter for one year rather than a realistic option in the draft (say Mac) or a another possible vet like Mariota or JG based on my opinions of those QBs? Yes. 

Is Wentz better than Foles in THIS offense? Yes.  But how much better?  I don't think the gap is big enough to get us over the top. Nevermind the injury risks.

There's just not a lot of realistic options to fix the QB position that is going to make us a SB contender THIS YEAR.  If a QB is not good enough put us over the top then they are not worth giving up a lot of capital and money for. 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[Heinz D.]

5 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Last year his job was already in jeopardy and when the news broke about him "giving up play-calling" I didn't believe it one bit after just one game because I saw the same boneheaded plays and I knew there was no way Nagy's ego was going to put his job in the hands of someone else. Come to find out....that was true. He never really gave it up.  This year is it for him, he knows it's either fireworks or back of the unemployment line so there is no way he was going to hand it over. Although I wish he would

It was pretty clear that Nagy either handed over play-calling duties, or at the very least became more open to input. The constant (often idiotic) motion went away. They started running outside zone plays more often than Nagy's beloved inside zone, They even did stuff like pull guards and such. There were fewer bubble screens. RPO became a wrinkle, and not a staple. Let's hope things don't go back to the way things were before. That was difficult to watch. 

[GOGRIESE]

Back to Mariota he actually played pretty well against the Chargers. Alot of zone read. 

[dll2000]

9 hours ago, WindyCity said:

I want Pace going full Kevin Costner “Draft Day” on this thing.

That movie was stupid. 

[dll2000]

7 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

 

 

 

It comes down to this IMO.

...

There's just not a lot of realistic options to fix the QB position that is going to make us a SB contender THIS YEAR.  If a QB is not good enough put us over the top then they are not worth giving up a lot of capital and money for. 

 

This has been my position.  
 

I would add that doing so hurts you after this year and keeps you from being a possible contender in future or resetting the board with new hopes and dreams on some 22 year old.  

I would also add that if stars align and Bears ran it back with basically same team plus a good draft and one good OL that is their only realistic shot IMO at being good in 2021.  

I have no faith in this offensive coaching staff to give up number 1 and more, bring in a new expensive QB without ARob and/or an improved Oline and make a contender in a season.  I don’t think a great coach could do it.   Tell me who could?  
  

[abstract_thought]

6 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

This has been my position.  
 

I would add that doing so hurts you after this year and keeps you from being a possible contender in future or resetting the board with new hopes and dreams on some 22 year old.  

I would also add that if stars align and Bears ran it back with basically same team plus a good draft and one good OL that is their only realistic shot IMO at being good in 2021.  

I have no faith in this offensive coaching staff to give up number 1 and more, bring in a new expensive QB without ARob and/or an improved Oline and make a contender in a season.  I don’t think a great coach could do it.   Tell me who could?

I agree 100%.

But Pace and Nagy know their jobs are on the line. The ownership specifically addressed the QB position in that press conference. It feels like they're going to make a splash at that position whether it's good for the future or not.

Which begs the question - why keep them around in the 1st place?

[dll2000]

After having watched Nagy I believe his faults lie away from chalk board.

He can diagram a play just fine.  He knows the concepts and reads.

He lacks in achieving execution.  

His Oline doesn’t block fundamentally well and the players literally regress from college technique (Daniels is best example - prior to last season - I think they showed improvement in season this year), his WRs often run poor routes and most have not improved over time (Mooney came in good from day 1 and stayed good - rest have been stagnant or possibly regressed), his young QB did not develop fundamentally until he sought outside help and so on.

Why?  Not because position coaches lack knowledge in fundamentals, but because of way they practice.

They just non-live scrimmage most of the time or run plays and then watch film of themselves scrimmaging and watching plays later in a classroom and talk about it.

You have to work on fundamentals a lot even at pro level.   You have to teach in real time for better effect - you can’t just always wait until later.

That’s all.  

 

 

[dll2000]

1 minute ago, abstract_thought said:

I agree 100%.

But Pace and Nagy know their jobs are on the line. The ownership specifically addressed the QB position in that press conference. It feels like they're going to make a splash at that position whether it's good for the future or not.

Which begs the question - why keep them around in the 1st place?

Yes, that was a mistake.  You should have extended them, handcuffed them or fired them.  

But that is why Bears are the Bears.