J-ALL-DAY Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, wackywabbit said: As I said in the other reply, I have them at about the same level. The "trajectory" case that you are making has been widely stated and is the reason most people put Allen a tier above Jackson now. My post was an alternate perspective with body of work, which no one seems to consider. The narrative that Lamar fell off a cliff last year and Josh Allen is stonks going up up up is equally shallow and lacking context... so I presented an intentionally shallow one the other way. You could make that case A for Allen, or make case B for Jackson based on what they've done, I think they should be viewed similarly. That is NOT what most people think though. Most think Allen is in a higher tier. Well sure, most will always go off the last season to judge players unless they have a big body of work. Neither Jackson nor Allen have that. But LIS, I am fine with people rating Jackson higher than Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 13 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Listen hussy… I get the skepticism, truly I do, but when in a *reasonable* offensive system, and not playing with OBJ (I can’t explain the issue either other than they lack anything that resembles chemistry), Baker has been very good to elite. Check the stats if you don’t believe me. Baker needs a strong OL and decent running game to succeed, but with those he doesn’t just succeed, he excels. LIS, I get why outsiders doubt him. But if you watch him play week in, week out, he’s 100% got the goods. Nothing I can say now will change people’s opinions though. Yep we said this exact thing about Jared Goff. Same exact thing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Reed Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 2 hours ago, FrantikRam said: Yep we said this exact thing about Jared Goff. Same exact thing. He just needs a top 3 OL, top 2 backfield and Odell Beckham and Jarvis Landry. That’s all 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 10 minutes ago, Ray Reed said: He just needs a top 3 OL, top 2 backfield and Odell Beckham and Jarvis Landry. That’s all I thought according to everybody on these message boards Odell is washed and not even a top 15 WR and Jarvis Landry catches 100 balls for 500 yards every year? By that logic Baker is more impressive for playing with these scrubs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 10 minutes ago, Ray Reed said: He just needs a top 3 OL, top 2 backfield and Odell Beckham and Jarvis Landry. That’s all exactly which is why I made the post that Baker needs to have elite production this year for people to have faith that he can be really good when that isn't the case. People will have to get paid including him and that will change. If he needs an elite supporting cast to be successful he might be a top 10 QB but barely and I wouldn't pay him big bucks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said: I thought according to everybody on these message boards Odell is washed and not even a top 15 WR and Jarvis Landry catches 100 balls for 500 yards every year? By that logic Baker is more impressive for playing with these scrubs. they are still good in comparison to the league average, just not what they once were especially Odell. But the biggest help Baker has, is the OL anyway. And Chubb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 3 minutes ago, SBLIII said: they are still good in comparison to the league average, just not what they once were especially Odell. But the biggest help Baker has, is the OL anyway. And Chubb. They wernt even ranked in PFFs top 10 WR units in the NFL. So realistically, they are a average/slightly above average receiving group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBLIII Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 Just now, AkronsWitness said: They wernt even ranked in PFFs top 10 WR units in the NFL. So realistically, they are a average/slightly above average receiving group. above average seems right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 2 hours ago, FrantikRam said: Yep we said this exact thing about Jared Goff. Same exact thing. Same exact thing about Alex Smith, Sam Darnold, Tim Couch, John Elway, Peyton Manning, and Steve Young too. It's really hard to gauge and say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 So apparently Cleveland has a 'Top 2 Roster in the NFL', so he needs to go off like a Watson or a Wilson or a Tannehill of last season in order to be considered top 10. The top 10 is full of guys that either have elite squads and make it count like Mahomes and Brady, or like those mentioned who turn chicken sh into chicken salad. I think Baker is like slightly above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateDawg Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 Given the injuries at receiver they have had the last couple years, I would say Cleveland has had, at best, an average receiving core out there at a given time. They have absolutely had a great running back group though without question, and solid offensive line. Chubb is as good as there is and with Hunt as a threat also out of the backfield, they’re in great shape there. Baker was certainly a very good quarterback last year. We were kind of fooled the year before, when he had some definite digression after people were hyping him up in the off-season. I think that’s a lot of the reason for the skepticism and apprehension. This year is year four, and I think what you see out there is what he is this season. Personally, I think he is going to have a good year and be a fringe top 10 guy, I think that’s about what his ceiling is, flexibly either way. I think on a yearly basis, he has a shot at making the AFC pro bowl, but I don’t think he is ever going to be in a top three category across the NFL. I do think he has a winners mentality out there though, and while surrounded by a good cast, can lead a contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 9 hours ago, MWil23 said: Same exact thing about Alex Smith, Sam Darnold, Tim Couch, John Elway, Peyton Manning, and Steve Young too. It's really hard to gauge and say. I'm sure someone said it about Manning and Young - but doubtful there'd be a 14 page debate about them on this site. Alex Smith/Goff/Couch are clearly a better comp for Mayfield. And that's not good for him being a top 10 QB. I've seen Browns fans talk about not having a good QB for so long and as such they should lock Mayfield up. But would have been fascinating to see someone like Couch with the literal best offensive line and running game in the league. We will never know but I'd bet with that advantage he would be as good or better than Baker. Not to mention that Baker also currently has the best coach the Browns have had since they came back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, FrantikRam said: I'm sure someone said it about Manning and Young - but doubtful there'd be a 14 page debate about them on this site …you realize Steve Young was all but labeled a bust his first 5+ years in pro football, right? https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm Edited September 8, 2021 by MWil23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrantikRam Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 16 hours ago, MWil23 said: …you realize Steve Young was all but labeled a bust his first 5+ years in pro football, right? https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm When he started 5/14/3/3/3 games? Lol okay.. His 40th start was the first of the 1992 season. He would go on to lead the league in passer rating 6 out of the next 7 seasons. Baker has already past his 40th start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 8 minutes ago, FrantikRam said: When he started 5/14/3/3/3 games? Lol okay.. His 40th start was the first of the 1992 season. He would go on to lead the league in passer rating 6 out of the next 7 seasons. Baker has already past his 40th start. I'm one of the biggest Steve Young fans on the planet...but he was considered a bust after 5 years. Not an exaggeration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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