Let's Talk GM/Ryan Pace

[beardown3231]

35 minutes ago, BACK2MACKSACK said:

I wanted to remain skeptical but it's finally time for Pace to go.

From the looks of it we have a mediocre roster without any real cornerstone players that we've had during the Urlacher regime. Aside from Roquan Smith, are there any players on our team that we've drafted that are flat out studs? Before we had players like Urlacher, Tommie Harris, Lance Briggs, Mike Brown, and Charles Tillman that we've drafted on defense. We've also never drafted any players of the caliber of Jeffery and Matt Forte on offense. I'm talking about playmakers that can get Touchdowns. Mooney does look pretty good though but that's just a small blip on the radar.

Pace has been extremely careless with our draft capital in order to field a mediocre team. He is good with his mid round draft picks but we've simply need more. Even though I think Fields can be good with the right coaching changes, the amount of first round draft picks he's given away is too much. We could've used these picks to infuse some talented youth into our team on either offense and defense.

He has been able to acquire some good players in Free Agency like Quinn, Trevethan, Hicks, and A-Rob but it's simply not good enough.

List of blunders: Kevin White, Leonard Floyd, Adam Shaheen, Mitchell Trubisky (finding a QB is hard but you definitely don't need to trade up to make this move), method of acquiring Justin Fields (giving away a 2022 high 1st round draft pick is a tough pill to swallow).

On a positive note, you can say that he is improving on the picks but he's left us in such a crippling position to build a strong contender. At times he has picked solid players but no real franchise cornerstones aside from Roquan and maybe Eddie Jackson if he could be more consistent.

Ryan Pace has no idea what the value of a high end draft pick and has been too casual in trading away high end draft capital.

I agree with all of this except Fields. If the Bears hadn't traded up for Fields, they would be 4-10 still- maybe a game better or worse- and then that high pick would either be used on another position of a major reach of a QB (Matt Corral). If it's the former, then what? Trade two 1's for a ~35 year old QB in Wilson? Trade three 1's for a predator in Watson? The Fields move was almost necessary, especially in hindsight

[Madmike90]

55 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

I agree with all of this except Fields. If the Bears hadn't traded up for Fields, they would be 4-10 still- maybe a game better or worse- and then that high pick would either be used on another position of a major reach of a QB (Matt Corral). If it's the former, then what? Trade two 1's for a ~35 year old QB in Wilson? Trade three 1's for a predator in Watson? The Fields move was almost necessary, especially in hindsight

Yeah I don't see how anyone can have a problem with the move for Fields...he would without doubt be the #1 overall pick in this draft (Jags would trade out).

[abstract_thought]

Jury's still out on Fields. He has obvious talent/tools, but he's pretty far from being an NFL QB.

I have no problem with that specific move as it's basically the cost of acquiring a young QB for many teams. But I agree that Pace values draft picks far too little. The draft is how you acquire cheap talent to keep your roster churning over. And as much as you have to have Anthony Miller, chances are you can stand pat and draft someone just as good.

[dll2000]

50 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Jury's still out on Fields. He has obvious talent/tools, but he's pretty far from being an NFL QB.

I have no problem with that specific move as it's basically the cost of acquiring a young QB for many teams. But I agree that Pace values draft picks far too little. The draft is how you acquire cheap talent to keep your roster churning over. And as much as you have to have Anthony Miller, chances are you can stand pat and draft someone just as good.

Especially with high bust rate of WRs.  Those are volume picks IMO where you are taking multi year producers and hoping to hit on one.  

Unless guy is a freak athlete with speed and size like a Moss, Calvin Johnson or guy from Atlanta who is escaping me at moment.  Those guys miss less and can become focal point of defense when they hit.  They are worth an early pick.  

[dll2000]

I liked Anthony Miller's college tape.   I thought he was worth a 2nd round pick TBH.  No way would I have traded up for him though.   

I also thought Kevin White would be good on draft day.   Shows what I know.  I didn't like taking a WR that high, but I thought he would be a good player.  

Who knows they may have been had they been drafted by other teams.

 

[Sugashane]

12 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I liked Anthony Miller's college tape.   I thought he was worth a 2nd round pick TBH.  No way would I have traded up for him though.   

I also thought Kevin White would be good on draft day.   Shows what I know.  I didn't like taking a WR that high, but I thought he would be a good player.  

Who knows they may have been had they been drafted by other teams.

 

White's injuries seemed to really rob him of the elite athleticism that caused him to be a coveted prospect. The pick was pure upside IMO, so he was never going to be a technician. Once he lost that he was JAG, one that had really long droughts between gameplay time.

Loved Miller's tape too. I would have thought ARob would be the perfect mentor for him but seems like I was way off on that too. Definitely disappointing.

[dll2000]

Just now, Sugashane said:

White's injuries seemed to really rob him of the elite athleticism that caused him to be a coveted prospect. The pick was pure upside IMO, so he was never going to be a technician. Once he lost that he was JAG, one that had really long droughts between gameplay time.

Loved Miller's tape too. I would have thought ARob would be the perfect mentor for him but seems like I was way off on that too. Definitely disappointing.

He was a traits pick.  Great size and speed.

You hope you can coach up a great piece of clay.   Doesn't always happen.  

Miller was college productive and ran decent routes etc.  I think this was a combo of him being a head case and Bears being bad.

I mean if all those times he was wide open early in his career he got thrown the ball accurately maybe everything is different for him.   

Kind of like those kids who mature early and do really good in youth sports then they work way harder at it because of all the accolades.   Then their parents spend money on trainers, etc. because they are excited.   They get extra coaching and on and on.

The momentum of early success matters in things.  Especially for people who are a little crazy.  

 

 

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

He was a traits pick.  Great size and speed.

You hope you can coach up a great piece of clay.   Doesn't always happen.  

Miller was college productive and ran decent routes etc.  I think this was a combo of him being a head case and Bears being bad.

I mean if all those times he was wide open early in his career he got thrown the ball accurately maybe everything is different for him.   

Kind of like those kids who mature early and do really good in youth sports then they work way harder at it because of all the accolades.   Then their parents spend money on trainers, etc. because they are excited.   They get extra coaching and on and on.

The momentum of early success matters in things.  Especially for people who are a little crazy.  

 

 

Name one person this could be backed by... wait...

 

Well.... point taken.

 

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

Name one person this could be backed by... wait...

 

Well.... point taken.

 

Remember Alonzo Spellman?  Talk about crazy.  

Pictures look a little alike too.  

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Remember Alonzo Spellman?  Talk about crazy.  

Pictures look a little alike too.  

There's something crazy in the eyes for them both... and an "abnormality" in the head that matches too.

[JAF-N72EX]

On 12/22/2021 at 1:43 PM, Sugashane said:

I soured on Nagy's playcalling early, the first game he had a big gain to Gabriel then lost 6 yards total on 4 more screens. Thought he would learn and improve since he only had a few games experience as a playcaller but he never really did.  Here and on another forum I mentioned how he was a mediocre playcaller.

I questioned him from the beginning for my lack of trust in McCaskey/Phillips and their choices in HCs, and Nagy's lack of experience. I gave Nagy the bodt as a HC (since he has shown some good traits that you look for there),  but my concerns were only further amplified due to his play-calling after his first game against GB in 2018 when he was clearly out-coached and seemed way in over his head (IIRC I posted examples of it here on this forum after the game).

The offense looked great when they were running script plays early on, but the minute those script reps ran out and Nagy was expected to adjust the play calling, according to the flow of the game, then he became completely lost. And what's even crazier is that the same thing is still happening now 4 years later. 

The first mistake he made as HC was benching Mitch and Arob and not fully utilizing preseason games in 2018, despite having a raw QB and his #1 WR coming off a ACL. I mean really..... who does this?  I also remember me and you pointing this out several times while others were saying that "preseason didn't matter" and jumped the gun during the first few drives, whilst claiming they were "right" during those scripted plays, like @beardown3231 was here. Ouch!

 

If you go back at look at the (very few times) the offense had a decent to good game, you will notice that most of that happened either within the first 15-25 plays of the game, or in garbage time. There is simply no balance or adjustments with him. At all.

 

On 12/22/2021 at 1:43 PM, Sugashane said:

His players regress the longer they are with him, and while not all of our issues are his fault a LOT stem from him allowing mishaps to constantly happen in practice and not correcting it  - or enforcing it. Leno and Massie - I think @JAF-N72EX mentioned? - appear to be doing better after leaving here (besides Leno ending Fitzpatrick's season early on). That may just be proof of how terrible Castillo and Nagy are with their OLs. As an OL coach the dead body flops Leno did while trying to cut would be my screensaver on the projection screen to shame him for that lack of effort. Clearly something changed when he left this team and hopefully we don't ruin Jenkins or Borom by infecting them with the acceptance of mediocrity.

The thing is, I don't even blame Castillo.  Nor do I blame Helfrich anymore either.  Why is the OL being moving around so much? Why are players performing better than when they leave here? 

I had no issue with running with Massie for 1 more year. I thought he was solid but was never going to be more than that, and then he became a cap casualty. That's understandable. But why is he suddenly playing better in Denver under worse circumstances? Albeit this is under Muchek too, which is worth of keeping in mind. Munchek can make anyone look better than they really are. Leno tho? Why is he playing better?  His biggest drawbacks were his constant penalties,  obvious decline these last 2 years, and being the weakest link on the OL last year.

It's obvious where the real problem lies......it's Nagy and his constant changes to the offense!

Football takes continuity to win and you can't keep changing your offense several times (mid-season at that) the second that something doesn't work out, as you had planned in your fairy-tale head, and still expect the QB, OL, AND the associated coaches to all be on the same page. The game starts upfront and this leads to confusion from top to bottom, and Nagy has done this from day one.

I keep saying it.....STOP CHANGING THE OFFENSE AND MOVING THE OL AROUND!  Keep them in one position and develop them at that one spot!  Now, who is responsible for this mishap? Is it Helfrich, Castillo, or Nagy? Because all signs are pointing to Nagy. Am I believe that Castillo and Helfrich (the most sought after OL coach) were BOTH responsible for the constant changes on OL? Sorry, not buying it.

Let's look back in time for a sec and look at who is really to blame here.

In 2018, Nagy took the job expecting to be able to make Mitch a good QB by utilizing his skill set based around his offensive scheme but if anyone remembers, that plan didn't work. Mitch wasn't as good as Nagy thought he was (to no fault of Nagy's--kind of (bad judgement?). Mitch was having trouble with accuracy, timing, and digesting the playbook and so Nagy dumbed down the playbook to make it easier for Mitch. Okay, he changed his offense (mid-season) to hide Mitch's flaws by redesigning his scheme and going with a run first offense.  A one time switch.....no problem there....we'll build on it. Give Mitch some more time to get acclimated by giving him easier throws in order gain experience and confidence, since he only had a limited amount of starts in college. In the meantime, we'll just run the ball and play good defense until next season.

Now, I had no problem with this approach at all.  It was both reasonable and understandable at the time. However, this created problems with Helfrich and the OL when Nagy made such a drastic shift on offense mid season. They drafted Daniels who was a natural C in college and moved him to LG because they already had Whitehair at C. Not a big deal. Guard was a needy position since Long was on a decline and well on his way out, and former college C's become good G's all the time in the pro's. So no problem there.  I'm fine with those decisions in 2018 from Nagy.

BUT, remember what Helfrich did here in 2018--despite the change. Whitehair, Daniels, Leno, AND Massie had the best best seasons of their careers, up to this point. Whitehair had trouble with handling snaps in 2016 and 2017 (much like Mustipher does now) and Helfrich fixed that issue.  When was the last time Whitehair botched a snap? He

Fast forward to 2019, Nagy was saying in the offseason that he was easing Mitch into the playbook carefully and that he was ready to give Mitch full control of the offense again. But what happened after the first few games of the season? Mitch wasn't good enough to operate Nagy's "extensive playbook" and so what did Nagy do? He change it again--early season. Not only did he change the playbook, but Helfrich opened the season my moving Whitehair from C to G and Daniels from G to C because that was based on what Nagy had planned for the offense in the offseason. And when that didn't work, Nagy changed his offense AGAIN for the 2nd time in one season and by this time, Massie was injured and so Helfrich had to adjust (and I'm never gonna blame injuries on coaches) and moved Ifedi from RG to RT.

But again, lets remember what Helfrich did with the OL in 2019. It's wasn't great, at all, but understand what he was working with.

Fast forward to 2020, Helfrich got fired and Castillo was brought in as a replacement. The OL and play-calling got moved AGAIN! Nagy basically told Mitch....this is my offense...if you can't run it then Foles will.  Meanwhile, Whitehair gets moved to LG, Daniels gets moved to his 3rd position in just as many years, Ifedi is solid at RG and then gets moved to RT when Massie gets injured.

Lets remember what Castillo did here during the COVID pandemic. He took a former RT bust in Ifedi and made him a solid fixture at RG. He took an undrafted OL and made him a solid fixture at C to fill the gap for a year, and was forced to play 3 different OL during a game when COVID protocols, including a 7th round pick in Hambright who held his own.

Again, am I believe that Helfrich and Castillo signed off moving these guys around this this much?

 

 

 

[WindyCity]

The only way I am cool with Pace staying is if he can land Sean Payton. 

There seems to be buzz around that possibility.

 

[beardown3231]

@JAF-N72EX Yeah, preseason is garbage and nothing that happens there is meaningful. I stand by it. Golladay got no preseason snaps this year. Know why that investment hasn't worked? Because the QB blows. The Bears haven't been bad because Nagy doesn't value preseason. The Bears have been bad because Nagy is crap, Trubisky stunk, Robinson is overrated and upper management is s***. FWIW preseason didn't seem to effect Robinson when he had 17 catches in his first 3 games that year, did it? Ouch!

Edited December 24, 2021 by beardown3231

[Madmike90]

4 hours ago, WindyCity said:

The only way I am cool with Pace staying is if he can land Sean Payton. 

There seems to be buzz around that possibility.

 

If you give me Payton I wouldn't even mind Pace staying...Payton elevates talent to such a level that it would be well worth it.

[G08]

I thought we were in cap hell!