ESPN Story on Patriots

[Hunter2_1]

Guys, seriously, not one of us claim that BB isn't the mastermind behind our operation for the past 15 years or so. Please stop trying to create a narrative that doesn't exist. He's our supreme overlord, and we value him over everyone else.

But that DOESN'T mean TB hasn't made his job much easier. He's the one out there leading and Quarterbacking the winning drives etc. 

It's taken BOTH of them. One probably needs the other, but one probably needs the other more.

 

Can someone please, please tell me the problem with this, and why you get so much schadenfreude when people go after us? We're adults, right? That Belichik is a great coach shouldn't detract from the fact that Brady is a great QB. It's taken two to make it out of siiiight. I reckon both would have been relatively successful without the other (Bill more so).

[lancerman]

11 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I think only Brady, Kraft and Patriots fans think Tom Brady has more to do with winning five Super Bowls than Bill Belichick.  Unless people think it's a coincidence the Patriots have had a top 10 defense more often than not in Brady's career.  Show me a list a Hall of Fame QBs that can say that and I'll show you a list with Tom Brady's name written on it and nobody else's. 

I mean only if you built the narrative in your head without actually looking at their track record. 

Kraft with BB or TB: Turned the franchise around. In 6 years had 3 double digit win seasons and only one losing season (he had a 2nd losing season in 2000 but Belichick was the HC and Brady was a backup), his team went to a Super Bowl within two years of buying the team.

Brady without BB or Kraft: star college QB who fought his way into a starting position. Was known for being clutch and coming from behind and earned the nickname comeback kid. Led his team to victories in the Cirtus Bowl and a come from behind win in the Orange Bowl against Bama. Brady's biggest negatives were that scouts worried he relied too much on intangibles and didn't have the best fundamentals and size to make a successful transition to the NFL

Belichick without Kraft or TB: Had one winning season in Cleveland and won a single playoff game. That's about all the good I can say, he ended up leaving with the worst winning percentage of any Browns coach in history who lasted more than two years at the time he retired and had a losing record. Other than that he was a great defensive coordinator for the Giants who led some dominant defenses, but at the time Belichick was having a stigma as a guy who was a great coordinator not a great coach (as others have been accused of)

Listen I think Belichick is the greatest coach of all time, but I also understand that Brady has given him tremendous leeway on offense that most other QB's wouldn't provide for him and has helped him pull out so many wins the team should have otherwise lost because he showed up when it counted. And Kraft provided the foundation and was already building a strong winning culture in New England before Kraft. There's very few accolades you could give Belichick as a HC (he was a great defensive coordinator) that don't come attached to Brady and Kraft as well. Meanwhile the things that made Brady successful in the NFL were showing up in Michigan and translating to big wins, and Kraft was already righting the ship. Belichick got into as much of a perfect situation as anybody and they are all dependent on another. 

[TXsteeler]

7 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Guys, seriously, not one of us claim that BB isn't the mastermind behind our operation for the past 15 years or so. Please stop trying to create a narrative that doesn't exist. He's our supreme overlord, and we value him over everyone else.

But that DOESN'T mean TB hasn't made his job much easier. He's the one out there leading and Quarterbacking the winning drives etc. 

It's taken BOTH of them. One probably needs the other, but one probably needs the other more.

 

Can someone please, please tell me the problem with this, and why you get so much schadenfreude when people go after us? We're adults, right? That Belichik is a great coach shouldn't detract from the fact that Brady is a great QB. It's taken two to make it out of siiiight. I reckon both would have been relatively successful without the other (Bill more so).

I think it's more about the idea that (if this story were completely true) the patriots franchise may be about to implode with TB and BB leaving, and that makes us all feel better.

[ttitansfan4life]

Good I hope that franchise burns to the ground. 

[August4th]

this story is very meh

feels like a local report that does't have enough juice to be a national story like ESPN is trying to make it be

[ttitansfan4life]

10 hours ago, scrimmage said:

Come home, Bill. 

Agreed. Come home to Nashville Bill!!!

[ChazStandard]

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Bottom line, if you think Belichick wouldn't have won 5 Super Bowls with Young, Montana, Staubach, Elway, Roethlisberger, Starr, Bradshaw, Unitas, Rodgers, Brees, Warner and about 30 other quarterbacks, you've clearly already chosen which side of this Tom/Bill/Rob feud you're on, and you picked the wrong side.

I haven't picked a side. As far as I know there is no feud. I need more than an anonymous source on click-bait filled site before I start believing there's any kind of big drama going on in Patriot Place. Your seething hatred is showing, you are relishing something that is as-yet unproven in order to get your licks in on your chosen target. As a Pats fan, this is not unfamiliar territory for me.

I don't think Bill would have won five Superbowls any of those guys except Brady (and maybe Montana). Because Brady is better than all of them. BUT I'm willing to admit it's possible - that Bill could have won multiple SBs with another QB, if you're ready and willling to make the same concession the other way. Could Brady have built a GOAT dynasty with Walsh or Landry as his coach? I think so. Coaches and QBs are always a chicken/egg scenario.

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My point?  Defense wins Championships, and the Patriots under Bill Belichick have been one of, if not the most, consistent defenses for any team during any stretch in NFL history.  I think half the quarterbacks in the league right now could lead a team to the Super Bowl and win it if their defense averaged 20 points a game.

Defense and offense don't exist in a vaccuum though, do they? For example, part of the reason the Patriots D (which is missing many key players from last year) finished top 10 in PPG this year is the Patriots offense doesn't turn the ball over, and ST don't give up big returns. The Pats D has had historically good starting field position for most of the last decade. These things work in concert.

Interestingly, as much as you want to give credit to the Patriots defense, compared to all other multi-SB winning QBs the Patriots defense is by far the worst. In Montanas 4 successful runs at the SB, his defense gave up 13 ppg. Bradshaw: 13. Staubach: 7. Elway: 15. Griese: 9. Peyton: 16. Eli: 15 Aikman: 17 Ben: 17 Plunkett: 13 Starr: 15

Brady? 19ppg.

The 12 QBs to win multiple SBs have won a combined 32 Superbowls. The losing side scored 21 or more in just  8 of those wins (25%). 1 for Montana, 1 for Elway, 1 for Bradshaw, 1 for Big Ben.

4 for Tom Brady.

In fact, in all 51 Superbowls, the losing side has only scored 21 or more 14 times (27%). The losing side has scored 21 or more in 4 of the Patriots 5 wins (that's 80%, nearly three times the league average). Included in that are 1st and 2nd biggest 4th quarter comebacks in SB history.

There's a pretty good argument that, of all the HoF QBs, Brady is more responsible for his teams titles than anyone else.

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Now how many of those quarterbacks never had a scoring defense below 19th in the league...

 I don't know. I already did your research for you once. Maybe look this one up yourself.

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...had the best tight end in the history of the league for 8 years...

This is an odd question. Gronk has played in precisely 1 of Brady's 5 superbowl wins, and has been injured for 5 post-seasons in his 8 years. To answer the question though, Elway got to play with Sharpe - the best TE of his generation. Montana had Rice (perhaps you've heard of him) for longer than Brady's had Gronk. Peyton had a stacked offense in Indy, including a HoF back and 2 HoF WRs, then went to another stacked offense in Denver. Aikman had the greatest RB of all time, and a HoF WR. Bradshaw had a HoF RB and WR duo. The list is pretty endless. In fact, Gronkowski might be the only other Patriots offense player to make it into the HoF from this era, and  - as I said - he's played in 1 SB win.

 

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 got two Super Bowls by opposing teams choking the game away

Ah yes, I forgot that all the other QBs on that list had nothing but bad luck in the post-season. This game goes both ways, but for a couple of freak plays the Patriots could have 7 SBs right now, or none at all. That's just how football works.

 

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and also were in two major cheating scandals that they/the team were 100% guilty of?

Well, this is just insanity at this point.

[chargerbuckeye]

If Belichick hits the open market, whoever becomes the packers gm should fire mccarthy immediately and hire Belichick 

[gopherwrestler]

6 minutes ago, chargerbuckeye said:

If Belichick hits the open market, whoever becomes the packers gm should fire mccarthy immediately and hire Belichick 

why? so in a couple years he can go thru the same thing with Rodgers and the 1M+? owners of the Packers?

[August4th]

wonder how much a team would be willing to give up for bill .. would the colts deal the 3rd pick?

[Xmad]

1 hour ago, Aztec Hammer said:

Brady haters out in full force! I admire the commitment.

So far I've read that the Director of Football Research is more important than the guy who touches the ball on every snap and throws it on most.

And that Brady would have zero championships and would've been out of the league within a few years if not for Bill.

Speaking as a non-Patriot fan, I'd just like to say this. Please guys, embrace the fact that he will always be better than your QB. Embrace the fact that Bill was 5-11 and 0-2, before Tom blessed him and told him, "it's okay Bill, you can take your house off the market, you're safe here."

Don't fight it. He is better than your QB. He is the best QB of all-time. It's okay. You will be okay.

If Bellicheck chose Bledsoe over Brady, Brady's entire career is re-written. He would not be the same QB who won 5 SBs without Bellicheck and his coaching.

He's clearly better than every QB not named Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers or Joe Montana, after that it's a matter of debate.

[RamRod]

Gonna be so weird to eventually see a Patriots team without Brady/Belichick.

[Trentwannabe]

So they should retire and avoid any more crap stories like this. Right? Please?

[lancerman]

A lot of this article is just extrapolating off things we know about. Kraft thinks of Brady as a son and they are tight. Brady is tight with Guerrero who has questionable methods and Belichick had his team privileges taken away. Brady wants to play until he's 45, Jimmy's contract was coming up. There was a very hard call on whether to keep Brady or Garoppolo. 

It's not hard to envision a scenario where Brady kept pushing to be the starter as he famously had to fight his way into the role and has always mentioned he believes he could lose it at any moment the way Bledsoe did. It's one of his biggest motivations. Belichick then has a discussion with Kraft and it wouldn't surprise me if Belichick said he felt more comfortable leaning on the younger QB of the future than the QB who even if everything goes perfect is looking at 2-4 more years. Kraft showed more loyalty to Brady and swayed a tough decision in Brady's favor. Now with Brady being set in stone as at least the immediate future, Belichick decides to deal with the Guerrero situation (which likely just goes away if they traded Brady). 

The issues I have are the hindsight questioning of motives. Brady's not the first and won't be the last to yell at a coordinator on the sidelines. The whole two QB trading situation is pretty much all with the benefit of hindsight. They had not made any decisions on Garopollo before they traded Brissett who at that point was redundant and even on his best day was never going to be the starting QB of this team so they traded someone who was back up level at best to a team who needed a QB with some potential for a WR who they felt they could work with when Edelman went down. And by the time they made a real decision with trading Jimmy it was on the deadline and they no longer had as much leverage. Acting like that's a confusing situation is seriously dubious to me. They didn't make any decisions on Jimmy when they could have gotten more because they wanted to see how Brady would hold up, and held up as an MVP candidate. 

The Guerrero stuff is telling but the story of him refusing to see Jimmy has already been questioned by other reporters with sources. And Don Yee who is Brady and Garoppolo's agents already questioned the story (and the story paints one of his clients, the one that will be around longer, in a positive light, and Brady in kind of a negative light, so he really no incentive to get involved one way or the other). 

 

 

[MKnight82]

So this turmoil caused them to collapse to the #1 seed in the afc this year?