The Mega Offseason Workout/OTA/Training Camp Thread

[KlenlyKenny]

Hoping that our O line stays healthy this year. I'm very excited for Richie, he still has a chance to do great for our team and we're going to need the experience. 

[agarcia34]

 

[agarcia34]

16:50 mark you see MM run a bootleg. With the way the want the run game to be the main focus. Would love to see the bootleg become a bigger part of the offense. Would make Waller so much for dangerous and fee him up

Edited May 27, 2021 by agarcia34

[MrOaktown_56]

12 hours ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

How can you not put him at box safety?

Box is a lot better than the split safety looks that Guenther ran.

[Fracta]

 

[NYRaider]

25 minutes ago, Fracta said:

 

Still looks slow and stiff, Solomon Thomas looks explosive though. 

[NYRaider]

6 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Box is a lot better than the split safety looks that Guenther ran.

Agreed. Box safety is pretty much the only role that Abram can be successful in, he doesn't have the instincts or range to play deep safety. 

[roi34]

On 5/19/2021 at 9:36 PM, raidr4life said:

You mean like Cleveland.

yes, 1 game haha

[Mr Raider]

On 5/28/2021 at 2:04 AM, NYRaider said:

Still looks slow and stiff, Solomon Thomas looks explosive though. 

Yeah. I won't put much stock in one clip that's under 30 seconds, that obviously isn't near enough to go on in terms of trying to make an evaluation or assessment of a players ability or how much they have improved in certain areas. 

Hopefully that just wasn't a great rep in an mini camp setting where everyone is just getting back to football and everything and the intensity will be dialed up and guys get in a better rhythm and grove for training camp and such. 

With all that said, I'm inclined to agree. Just going off that one rep Ferrell does still look incredibly stiff, slow, not very explosive, and just doesn't have any bend or quick twitch abilities. That's not the typical rep you will see in that situation from one of the premier edge rushers in the game. 

But like I said hopefully it's just a case of it being early in the start of getting back into the swing of things and isn't a setting where everyone is going 100% and he will look more explosive and agile more regularly. 

Kind of still goes back to what I was saying in my earlier post though, that looks like a rep of a drill where an interior rusher looks agile and explosive. Ferrell has good power for an end but doesn't have the bend or twitchness you look for. He could take a real step forward as an interior pass rusher or if he takes a big step at DE it will be because of his power and great technique. And while there are guys that win in that way regularly, it makes the margin for error significantly smaller in terms of being an impact edge player. 

[Mr Raider]

On 5/26/2021 at 10:51 PM, Turnobili said:

i like this. i've been saying this for some time now... give Amik a shot outside (where he actually played in college). 

I agree. Amik has tremendous college tape on the boundary. Like some real high level stuff in terms of his strength, being aggressive getting his hands on receivers and rerouting them/not giving them easy releases, he shows real sticky coverage, good ball skills, and was regularly able to hold up on an island when a lot of college corners struggle there. 

I get when you see a 5'9" corner you immediately think this guy probably has his best chance of success in the slot, but I don't think when you have a guy that played as well as Robertson did on the outside you should totally refuse to give them a chance to compete on the outside simply because of height. 

By all means give him reps and experience there because he may be able to do it very well, but with a CB room as open as ours I don't think we should look at any spot or any player as an absolute. I would like to see Amik get opportunities on the outside and see if he has enough tools to be effective there despite his lack of ideal height and length. It may still be a long shot, because almost every mid round pick is a long shot to be great, but with a guy like Amik there's a good case to be made if he was 6' and put out the same level of play he would have gone much earlier. 

It's absolutely something worth exploring. Worst case he shows his size makes him too hard to play outside and you are right back where you started coming into the season. 

[Humble_Beast]

try him in slot. honestly think Amik could get cut. we have alot of corners and he was drafted by the old coaching staff

[Bitty 2.0]

1 hour ago, Humble_Beast said:

try him in slot. honestly think Amik could get cut. we have alot of corners and he was drafted by the old coaching staff

I never understood why coaches did that? Use the best players, who cares were they come from.

[Mr Raider]

3 hours ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

I never understood why coaches did that? Use the best players, who cares were they come from.

I mean I get it in the sense of a player may have been drafted by the previous regime for a specific scheme and the new scheme the coach believes will be most effective long term, and the scheme they are most comfortable running and teaching, isn't a scheme that a specific player is going to be able to demonstrate quality play. For instance if guys were drafted to play off coverage and primarily zone coverage and a new coach comes in and was hired off his accomplishments running a press man heavy scheme, I can totally understand the new staff looking to move on, upgrade, or at least bring in competition, you should still at least give the old guards guy a chance to show whether he has the tools necessary to play in the new scheme and not just assume because he was drafted by the old staff for a different role that he is incapable of doing anything else. 

That makes sense to me. But I agree with you in the sense that a lot of the time it's done because they simply want the credit of "their" players they hand selected succeeding. Because of the hold over from the previous staff plays well a lot of the time coaches don't get as much credit or acknowledgement because they weren't the ones that brought them in (even though in my eyes it would actually be a bigger accomplishment to take a guy you didn't have a hand in scouting and hand picking for your scheme and were still able to coach them up, develop them, and put them in position to play to their strengths). It largely comes down to coaches and front offices are notorious for having huge egos. I guess it's somewhat understandable in the sense that the NFL isn't known for patience and long leashes, so coaches may fear they don't have as much time to teach guys or help them relearn things to be a better fit or whatever, and some worry that guys from past staffs play regardless of good or bad won't be heavily factored on their report card when it comes to keeping their job or a new contract. For a lot of NFL coaches and GMs it's not enough to win, they have to win their way. That is probably one of the biggest gripes people can have with Gruden too (and I would include myself in this camp). Winning will never be enough for Gruden if it's winning in a fashion where he won't be heavily praised for being the driving factor. Same when it comes to the draft, he would rather reach, especially on offensive pieces because he's confident he will get them to succeed and then he will get all the praise for drafting a specific guy early because Gruden knows what his scheme needs. Makes him look like the smartest guy in the room if they succeed in his eyes. But he doesn't factor in the possibility they don't succeed or even more importantly the draft isn't simply about the quality of players, but your understanding of value and being able to work and maneuver the other 31 teams and the board overall to get the most bang for your buck. 

The best coaches and GMs are the guys that put their ego aside, take what they are given, and find a way to get the absolute most out of it. Do that and the praise, accolades, and security will come with it. You'll never have everyone agree on how much credit you should get, so don't play into that rigged game. When you consistently put out a winner and win a superbowl or multiple, then I'll trust a coach enough to say ego or not, he has shown enough to have faith in doing things "his" way and that being most important. For the vast majority though, it'll be their downfall. Gruden believes himself to be in that first camp because of his super bowl, and because of how popular he is as a personality, and his big paydays and roles on ESPN and his 10 year contract, but he's wrong. He's treading closer to being one of the guys where his ego is what hangs him because that super bowl might as well have been a previous lifetime and none of the other stuff proves he's qualified to build an elite football team. It proves he's an elite football personality and people like seeing him on TV. 

[Mr Raider]

Now I don't know enough about Bradley and his past enough to speak on how rigid he is when it comes to having to have his hand picked guys or if he has the flexibility and understanding that isn't what is most important and instead focuses on putting what he does have on the whole in the best position to succeed. I mean I know he, like every coach, has a specific scheme that has helped them make their money and get to where they are, Bradley is a clear cover 3 guy and will live and die by that, but having a bread and butter scheme isn't the same thing as looking to move on from any player that was brought in before he could help influence what he looks for. 

I will say the differences between the Seattle defense to the Jags defense, to the Chargers defense, the cover 3 system may have been consistent, but they still seemed to be very different in terms of how he deployed the players he had at his disposal. He showed an ability to adapt and change when given different tools like being more flexible with the LEO position, the role of the SLB from team to team depending on what he had, and using guys like Bosa, Engram, Campbell, Yannick, etc as the foundation pieces on the defensive front in ways that are clearly different than his defense showed during his run with the L.O.B. The smaller LBs/ less traditional secondary players is pretty encouraging too from his ability to use guys like James, Chancellor, Kyzir White, Rayshawn Jenkins, Trey Boston, Telvin Smith, Desmond King between CB and S, etc in roles that would switch in certain areas from his time on one team or another and the roles their positions were expected to fill. Not to mention a decent track record of helping guys reach heights they hadn't showed in previous places, with Hayward that was actually all pro caliber play.

He has shown a pretty decent amount of flexibility and adaptability depending on the talents and abilities of the players on his roster. Obviously the primary cover 3 is going to continue from team to 3, so in the most basic sense it is the same, but from the research I have done between Seattle, Jacksonville, LAC, there has been quite a bit of differences, changes, and a fair amount of evolution inside the cover 3 from stop to stop. That is encouraging to me when talking about whether his ego and need for "his" guys to be brought in to replace every hold over from previous coaches. 

 

[Mr Raider]

5 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

try him in slot. honestly think Amik could get cut. we have alot of corners and he was drafted by the old coaching staff

Robertson IMO would have to play pretty poorly to get cut. I am not outright ruling it out, but it would take Hayward looking like he still has a year or two of quality play, Mullen to be what he was last season or better, Isiah Johnson taking a big step and looking like a guy that could push for a lot of playing time, and then Robertson would have to look significantly worse and look to have no long term upside than the vets like Douglas, Nixon, and Lawson, in addition to Hobbs. I know he didn't show must last year, but I won't write off a rookie CB looking rough. Especially with a significant jump in competition, playing in a bad scheme, with very little talent around him in the pass rush or the rest of the secondary, while making the transition to slot as an every down thing. Johnson and Robertson are the corners I am most eager to see this camp. I think both guys have skill sets to become really solid players for us. I understand Bradley is bringing in a new scheme, but I don't think Robersons height alone will be what gets him the axe, because I don't believe his height will be such a negative that he can't play in the cover 3. He may lack the height, but in college he did display the man coverage, press skills, playing on an island, and ball skills to find success there. I may actually argue that even with his height and length not being preferred in Bradley's scheme, the rest of his skill set fits Bradley's scheme far better. But a large part of that could also just be the fact that Bradley has at least an average scheme and ability to coach and Gunther showed very little to me.

I'm not saying Amik shouldn't get any time or development in the slot. He absolutely should. I still think it's something he could do at a high level in the NFL, I just don't think we should pigeonhole him into a slot only CB and have the expectations of him succeeding there or he has no shot or role on the team. I think he could at least become a valuable depth guy in the secondary that can play on the boundary at at least a serviceable level and do the same at nickel. Even if the odds of him becoming a pro bowler or something at either is unlikely just because it's rare for mid round picks to reach that level. 

I would predict the CB final roster looks like

Mullen

Hayward

Arnette 

Johnson

Robertson

Douglas

I could also easily see Nixon or Hobbs outplaying Douglas for the last CB spot, but I don't think they want an entire CB room with 4 out of the 6 guys having played 2 years for one of the top 2 corners, and the other 3 having not even that much experience. Hobbs they will probably try their best to stash on the practice squad unless he just flashes a ton in camp. 

Lawson will get carried on the roster until after his suspension and then probably cut, but he could also get the nod over Douglas for the last spot.