Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, Matts4313 said:

People telling me? I am almost certain you havent actually read the thread. I conceded that point a long time ago. I have no clue why you keep trying to box me into a corner that I am fighting that point. I am not nor have I argued against more accepting phraseology. Could you please stop insinuating that I have? 

I havent. The end. 

I don't care.

[Dome]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

But disagree on my main point: having bad parents is definitely more detrimental than growing up black or gay. That's an easy google search. Having a good support structure will make being gay much easier. Having a bad support structure and not being gay is likely going to cross over into the harder territory.

A kid being abused by his mom or dad has no choice but to go home and face that abuse. There's often nothing they can do.

According to people who have actually done research and aren’t just speaking about anecdotes from their personal life, parts of this statement are wrong, or at least not well defined enough to be considered fact.

Care to post the links that those google searches would lead me to? I’ll post mine.

A “good support structure” isn’t a reliably quantifiable term for the type of claim you’re trying to make, so what exactly are you saying and who did the research?

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/preventing-suicide/facts-about-suicide/

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/messages/2020/addressing-the-crisis-of-black-youth-suicide

Edited June 24, 2021 by Dome

[Xenos]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:01 PM, Louis Friend said:

I don’t post much outside of the Lions forum. But I feel compelled to add my two cents. 

I am gay. The words “gay”, “homosexual”, gay slurs were not used in my household growing up. I had no idea what it was I was feeling or that there were others like me. I knew at a young age that I was different. I felt about the same sex as I was taught I was supposed to feel about the opposite sex. This is very confusing for a child. I learned about how people who were different were sent to institutions and even killed. I was so scared to admit to myself, let alone to others, what I was experiencing. I was also raised Catholic. So going to catechism while wondering why God made me wrong was a very troubling time for me. I stayed in the closet (as much as I could) until I was 20 years old. I came out to my mother and a few friends, quietly, after years of struggling with mental health, depression, suicidal thoughts and questioning faith. I finally had a realization that God doesn’t make mistakes. And being a gay Christian is not an anomaly. It’s living your life as God made you. And who are we to question him?! 

I’ve seen the world change in my lifetime. I’ve seen celebrities, teachers, doctors, lawyers, athletes and even clergy come out as LGBT+. In the last ten years alone, I’ve seen marriage equality, adoption rights and open military service for my US gay brethren. I’ve seen political figures pass laws for our protection. I’ve seen people I was terrified of growing up, walk proudly in pride parades as allies for their gay friends and family. 

Maybe one day seeing a HRC sticker on a vehicle won’t catch my eye right away. Maybe one day we won’t have statistics on youth suicide rates. Maybe one day we all will have a seat at the table where decisions and change take place. But we haven’t arrived at that day yet. So I applaud the Carl Nassibs and Michael Sams of the world. I am thankful and taken aback but the support of others (like you fine ladies and gentlemen in this thread). You are saving lives and creating change simply but choosing to take a stance and use your voice for the betterment of others. Thank you. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Xenos

[FrantikRam]

5 hours ago, Dome said:

According to people who have actually done research and aren’t just speaking about anecdotes from their personal life, parts of this statement are wrong, or at least not well defined enough to be considered fact.

Care to post the links that those google searches would lead me to? I’ll post mine.

A “good support structure” isn’t a reliably quantifiable term for the type of claim you’re trying to make, so what exactly are you saying and who did the research?

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/preventing-suicide/facts-about-suicide/

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/messages/2020/addressing-the-crisis-of-black-youth-suicide

 

How many of those kids have divorced parents? How many have "good" parents? You likely posted two links that strengthen my point.

Yes it's subjective, and there aren't strong definitions - and that's a big problem.

Just Google "effects of bad parenting" and then "effects of being black or gay". It's common sense - one thing is something that's actively done that you have to overcome, the other is something you may have to overcome. Because there are black and gay people who have never had any issues - never had to overcome anything. There's never been a person that said "so glad I had ****ty parents". The impact of parenting - in most cases - is felt before someone has to face the outside world and be aware of all the prejudice that exists.

Here's an example of what bad parenting can do and there are a lot more common sense examples too - serial killers are not genetic monsters. Bad parenting has created ripples that have destroyed a million families over the years

http://www.flourishleaders.com/ten-serious-effects-of-negative-parenting-and-the-science-behind-them/

 

Another reason a lot of those kids contemplate suicide? Bad parenting from the other side. There is no excuse for your kid being a bully. Zero.

 

And I want to clarify the point I'm trying to make - I'm cool with anyone arguing for whatever they believe will help people. The youth suicide crisis is definitely a huge problem - I just believe it's traced back to parenting on either side, and its hard to fathom that we all just accept it. There's a ton of research on what bad parenting can do. For some people - including some black and gay people - the most challenging thing they will have to overcome is their parents getting divorced but society just accepts that because it's so common.

[nagahide13]

It's good that we don't care whether about people's sexual orientation, but that's not really the issue here.

People are publicly coming out which is often terrifying for them at best. People lose family over these issues. Their actual safety can be threatened. Look into Matthew Shepard... that stuff happens.  Saying that we don't care is just kind of distasteful... nobody is worried about our ambivalence.

It's important to them, and it's potentially important to a lot of other people as well. That's what we care about.

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

7 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

Thats simply not true. Starting yesterday morning in regards to Ramblin mans post I thought was terrible:

Later on I spoke with Dome and reaffirmed that marginalized groups needed to be supported and that some of this phraseology was pretty terrible. 

A stance I repeated over and over. Are you willing to admit you were wrong in your accusation just now? 

I just don’t understand why if you understand the point, which tbh, you seem to by acknowledging that some of the phraseology is terrible, you continue to defend it?
 

I used to have your same mindset.  “I don’t care, bro”.  I thought it was a good stance.  I thought who could be offended by me not caring?  But then I learned that *some* people view it as dismissive, as though that part of their personality is irrelevant to me when it’s clearly not irrelevant to them. YOU may not care that they’re LGBTQ, but THEY do.  It’s an important part of their identity and one that, for many, was exceptionally difficult to even realize and perhaps even more so to admit openly.

So when I learned this I thought damn, I certainly don’t want people to feel as though “I don’t care”, because I DO care, I want these people who I care about to know that I DO care about them and who they are as a person. 

So I changed my verbiage.  I acknowledged that I while I may not have meant anything by it, I may be doing more harm than good to *some* people.  
 

I just don’t get why so many people seem to have such an issue looking at this and saying “damn, I never realized this statement could be viewed as such, lemme just make that change so that misunderstanding doesn’t happen”. 
 

And yes, I’m assuming you and others didn’t know this before this thread because I’d hate to think that anyone who is as supportive of LGBTQ folks as some in this thread say they are would then be so dismissive of the issue. I’m assuming you’d want to do your best and be as supportive as you could be.

[JonStark]

4 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

It's good that we don't care whether about people's sexual orientation, but that's not really the issue here.

People are publicly coming out which is often terrifying for them at best. People lose family over these issues. Their actual safety can be threatened. Look into Matthew Shepard... that stuff happens.  Saying that we don't care is just kind of distasteful... nobody is worried about our ambivalence.

It's important to them, and it's potentially important to a lot of other people as well. That's what we care about.

 

I agree completely. The debate in here got going when the people in the "I don't care about someone's sexual orientation" group got lumped in with the "I don't care about the issue itself" group. The first one didn't need to be brought up in the thread (which was partly my fault), but from there it spiraled into a bunch of posters self righteously criticizing others for a stance that they don't even have. 

There are only a few posters in here that seem to not care that the issue itself being important or not caring about Carl's announcement, and I agree that having that stance is dismissive and harmful. It is important (especially in such a masculinity driven sport such as football), and I think the majority of us here share that same sentiment. 

[Deadpulse]

7 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

But disagree on my main point: having bad parents is definitely more detrimental than growing up black or gay. That's an easy google search. Having a good support structure will make being gay much easier. Having a bad support structure and not being gay is likely going to cross over into the harder territory.

A kid being abused by his mom or dad has no choice but to go home and face that abuse. There's often nothing they can do.

Since that's something we probably won't agree on, might not be worth continuing a discussion.

Again, it does not matter which is worse. Both groups need to be lifted up and it's wrong to rank them as you are. 

7 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

Sounds like we agree on some things. Definitely help both people. And I don't pick and choose who has it worse - if anything that's what grouping people together does. Like I said, it's about having empathy for everyone in your sphere of influence. And I'm not trying to say it doesn't exist - the human experience is tailer made to be stereotypical (i.e. someone named Jessica broke my heart and I'm never dating a Jessica again). I don't think there's value in continuing to remind marginalized groups that they're marginalized. On the individual level you wouldn't lower your expectations or hopes for a kid just because they were gay. You would have the same hopes and expectations as you did for your straight kid. It's just creating division. You might convince some people but you're going to alienate others. Makes more sense to me to just focus on the people close to you and make a positive impact in their lives - if everyone did that, there's every chance that alone overcomes the people who are hateful toward that individual.

Remind them that they are marginalized? Trust me, we don't need to be reminded. We live it every day. Don't take away our struggle for the sake of individualism. Again, of course the individual experience exists and that should be taken into account. However, don't just dismiss what makes mine and other's experience different than yours. Being gay or a POC is not all people are, but it is a huge part. You say it creates division, and maybe it does, but that isnt because we are grouping marginalized people its because some of those who arent are bad people. You are getting dangerously close to saying something to the effect of, "It doesn't matter if you are black, gay, etc, we are all the same" and don't you dare get that mindset. We are not the same. Celebrate and uplift our differences. Acknowledge our differences, they are apart of people. Don't bury your head in the sand for the sake of stopping 'division' because it wont work. 

[JonStark]

3 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

Don't take away our struggle for the sake of individualism. 

Now this is something I've learned in this thread. The people in my life personally don't want to be looked at any different and I thought that treating everyone the same was possible while also being aware of the struggles they have endured. 

Seeing that some people think that individualism is trying to bypass the oppression that's occurred is not something I thought of before, but it does make sense. Not for everyone, as I still think we can't lump how everyone in the community feels into one opinion, but that works both ways and I should be more aware that two gay people can have different ways of looking at it. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, JonStark said:

Not for everyone, as I still think we can't lump how everyone in the community feels into one opinion, but that works both ways and I should be more aware that two gay people can have different ways of looking at it. 

This is exactly what we’re saying though.  Not everyone is ok with “I don’t care”, some people find it dismissive and regressive.

No one feels this way about statements of affirmation.

All we as a society need to do is change our verbiage and we can be assured that we’re providing positive affirmation to EVERYONE.

[Deadpulse]

13 minutes ago, JonStark said:

Now this is something I've learned in this thread. The people in my life personally don't want to be looked at any different and I thought that treating everyone the same was possible while also being aware of the struggles they have endured. 

Seeing that some people think that individualism is trying to bypass the oppression that's occurred is not something I thought of before, but it does make sense. Not for everyone, as I still think we can't lump how everyone in the community feels into one opinion, but that works both ways and I should be more aware that two gay people can have different ways of looking at it. 

Glad you can see that angle. Being treated the same is great in a lot of circumstances, but not all. This scene really shows the point here:

 

[JonStark]

14 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

This is exactly what we’re saying though.  Not everyone is ok with “I don’t care”, some people find it dismissive and regressive.

No one feels this way about statements of affirmation.

All we as a society need to do is change our verbiage and we can be assured that we’re providing positive affirmation to EVERYONE.

I agree with that but that is not what everyone has been saying. I was being told that the phrase is harmful and dismissive to everyone, not that some people could take it that way. I have real life examples of not everyone taking it that way, and took offense to people trying to paint me into this insensitive person when I have always supported the movement, the people in my life that struggle with it, and anyone in the world who has been oppressed for any reason that is out of their control. 

Going back to the horror example, I was being told horror is not ok to watch, not that some people do not enjoy horror movies. I honestly believe most of us are on the same side and am not entirely sure how we ended up on separate sides of this debate.

2 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

Glad you can see that angle. Being treated the same is great in a lot of circumstances, but not all. This scene really shows the point here:

 

That absolutely makes sense. Sometimes I think I get too caught up in striving to see everyone treated equally that I may lose fact to celebrate the differences as well. The differences are what make us who we are as an individual. Thanks for the insight on that.

[EaglesPeteC]

Imagine not understanding that sports, and especially football, is filled with a reputation of toxic masculinity and that most gay men feel it is not a place for them as a player or fan and seeing there is an openly gay man in the sport helps breakdown that barrier and then responding like “who cares?” 
 

imagaine 

[Dome]

2 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

How many of those kids have divorced parents? How many have "good" parents? You likely posted two links that strengthen my point.

Yes it's subjective, and there aren't strong definitions - and that's a big problem.

Well first, you’re trying to say that a kid with divorced parents is automatically worse off than a kid who doesn’t have divorced parents. That’s not the case.

You can have divorced parents that love and support you, you can have married parents that abuse you. You can have married parents that support you but constantly fight with each other, making a bad home environment. You can have divorced parents that make every single sacrifice they can as for you, regardless of their marital status.

What you’re saying here is anecdotal. Nobody is arguing that having bad parents isn’t going to make life harder than having good parents. We all recognize that.

2 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

Just Google "effects of bad parenting" and then "effects of being black or gay". It's common sense - one thing is something that's actively done that you have to overcome, the other is something you may have to overcome. Because there are black and gay people who have never had any issues - never had to overcome anything. There's never been a person that said "so glad I had ****ty parents". The impact of parenting - in most cases - is felt before someone has to face the outside world and be aware of all the prejudice that exists.

Post the links. If the data is so prevalent, post the links. 

I do not believe you have the data to back up what you’re saying, just anecdotal evidence you can support with opinions.

2 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

Here's an example of what bad parenting can do and there are a lot more common sense examples too - serial killers are not genetic monsters. Bad parenting has created ripples that have destroyed a million families over the years

http://www.flourishleaders.com/ten-serious-effects-of-negative-parenting-and-the-science-behind-them/

That article shows the negative affects having unsupportive parents can have. Nobody is denying that. The leap you’re making when you say “and that’s harder than being black or gay” is the part that isn’t supported by your link.

2 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

Another reason a lot of those kids contemplate suicide? Bad parenting from the other side. There is no excuse for your kid being a bully. Zero.

💯… bad parents can absolutely ruin a child.

2 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

And I want to clarify the point I'm trying to make - I'm cool with anyone arguing for whatever they believe will help people. The youth suicide crisis is definitely a huge problem - I just believe it's traced back to parenting on either side, and its hard to fathom that we all just accept it. There's a ton of research on what bad parenting can do. For some people - including some black and gay people - the most challenging thing they will have to overcome is their parents getting divorced but society just accepts that because it's so common.

Please provide a link for this claim.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, JonStark said:

I agree with that but that is not what everyone has been saying. I was being told that the phrase is harmful and dismissive to everyone, not that some people could take it that way. I have real life examples of not everyone taking it that way, and took offense to people trying to paint me into this insensitive person when I have always supported the movement, the people in my life that struggle with it, and anyone in the world who has been oppressed for any reason that is out of their control. 

I don’t want to backtrack or go in circles, but if you agree with my point than this should be an easy and obvious change to make to assure you’re being the best ally you can.  I mean, we all should want to put our best foot forward on things like this, right?

Continuing to say “I don’t care” while also admitting you agree that it can be viewed as dismissive or regressive by some doesn’t really accomplish that.