EDGE rushers

[Forge]

I have no problem taking Williams at 61 for the niners, but I have the utmost faith in Kocurek to actually refine him and get the most from him. I'm far more willing to gamble there just of the faith I have in the staff because the athletic traits are so good. 

[MSURacerDT55]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

I really don't think so.  I mean, what would you say his go-to pass rush move is?  He's athletic as hell, but completely unrefined as a pass rusher.  Someone's going to take him higher then he probably should, but you're going to need to develop him.  I'm just saying so far he's gotten by purely on athleticism.  He'll need to bei refined.

Oh, I agree, its evident on film. His go to move is to beat the OT to the point, dip and bend, he definitely needs refinement, but his tools are borderline elite, he is a supreme developmental guy, I think we are saying the same thing. He actually reminds me of Josh Sweat, a guy who is a sub package guy that blossoms into an every down pass rushing threat once he gets better against he run.His tools are so good and the class isn't great that he will go higher than where he needs to go.

Edited April 22, 2022 by MSURacerDT55

[CWood21]

6 minutes ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Oh, I agree, its evident on film. His go to move is to beat the OT to the point, dip and bend, he definitely needs refinement, but his tools are borderline elite, he is a supreme developmental guy. He actually reminds me of Josh Sweat, a guy who is a sub package guy that blossoms into an every down pass rushing threat once he gets better against he run.

Honestly, his athletic profile actually compares pretty favorably to Montez Sweat.

[MSURacerDT55]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

Honestly, his athletic profile actually compares pretty favorably to Montez Sweat.

Not going to fight you on that one, I can see the similarities 

[Packerraymond]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:55 PM, CWood21 said:

He did?  He had a couple of good reps, but he looked exactly like he did the rest of his tapes.  He's got absolutely no pass rush plan.  The hand usage is virtually non-existent, and he looks more like he's trying to run through an OL's body then any idea of how to rush the passer.  He's getting by completely on his physical tools.  That needs a TON of refinement before he's serviceable in the NFL.

You're acting like you're grading a top 10 pick. Kid is 260, ran 4.45 and put up 32.5 TFL's and 22.5 sack in the SEC, and is going to go round 2-3. Obviously he has no rush plan, or he'd be a top 10 pick. 

You want an EDGE with a full rush repertoire? That's like looking for a HS pitcher in the draft that already has 3 plus pitches, they exist, there's probably 2-3 a year, and they're top 10 picks. 

I'd argue Hutch, Thibs and Karlaftis have a rush repertoire this year. Walker, Mafe, Johnson, Ojabo, Williams, all just win with traits. If you're picking anywhere outside the top 10 picks, you're drafting an EDGE for what he can be and not what he is, because there's really no reason for a guy who can bend around every offensive tackle in college to get his *** kicked trying to develop counter moves. Draft hype season doesn't look at guys and say "well he only had 3 sacks this year, but look at all the rush moves he was trying to master!" Just put what works on tape, and worry about the rest when you're a pro. 

[.Buzz]

 

[NewAge]

8 hours ago, .Buzz said:

 

Not going to really argue with the general premise here but Calvin Pace also ended up with more NFL sacks than Ziggy Ansah. 

[CWood21]

20 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

You're acting like you're grading a top 10 pick. Kid is 260, ran 4.45 and put up 32.5 TFL's and 22.5 sack in the SEC, and is going to go round 2-3. Obviously he has no rush plan, or he'd be a top 10 pick. 

You want an EDGE with a full rush repertoire? That's like looking for a HS pitcher in the draft that already has 3 plus pitches, they exist, there's probably 2-3 a year, and they're top 10 picks. 

I'd argue Hutch, Thibs and Karlaftis have a rush repertoire this year. Walker, Mafe, Johnson, Ojabo, Williams, all just win with traits. If you're picking anywhere outside the top 10 picks, you're drafting an EDGE for what he can be and not what he is, because there's really no reason for a guy who can bend around every offensive tackle in college to get his *** kicked trying to develop counter moves. Draft hype season doesn't look at guys and say "well he only had 3 sacks this year, but look at all the rush moves he was trying to master!" Just put what works on tape, and worry about the rest when you're a pro. 

You're not going to find me disagree with a word of that.  Because that's exactly what I've been saying.  He's probably a late Day 1, early Day 2 pick because of those athletic tools.

[Chiefer]

12 hours ago, NewAge said:

Not going to really argue with the general premise here but Calvin Pace also ended up with more NFL sacks than Ziggy Ansah. 

Almost nullifies his whole argument lol

[sammymvpknight]

On 4/22/2022 at 4:00 PM, .Buzz said:

 

Im confused. Are we pretending that Walker is far and away a better athlete than both Thibs and Hutch? Because it’s be one thing if we are comparing Walker to Jarvis Jones, which were not. We are comparing Thibs and Hutch, who are also very good athletes, with way more production and have significantly better pass rush traits. Thibs and Hutch aren’t Garrett, but they don’t have to in order to be much better prospects than Walker. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by sammymvpknight

[jebrick]

39 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

Im confused. Are we pretending that Walker is far and away a better athlete than both Thibs and Hutch? Because it’s be one thing if we are comparing Walker to Jarvis Jones, which were not. We are comparing Thibs and Hutch, who are also very good athletes, with way more production and have significantly better pass rush traits. Thibs and Hutch aren’t Garrett, but they don’t have to in order to be much better prospects than Walker. 

But you do not get clicks talking about the same thing.    Walker is an project.  Hutch and Thibs are closer to finished material.  Both have higher floors than Walker but Walker has a slightly higher ceiling just based on physical abilities.  I did enjoy the arguments on Sam  Williams who as no pass rushing moves so could fit into the very back of the 1st round.  You could replace the breakdown of Williams with Walker.  No production.  No real pass rush moved other than to bull rush or stunt.  But Walker is a potential #1 pick.

 

Totally up to the GMs to swing for the fences  on projects or get a more refined player.  Bigger risk in the former for the #1 pick , but, as always, YMMV.

[Chiefer]

1 hour ago, jebrick said:

But you do not get clicks talking about the same thing.    Walker is an project.  Hutch and Thibs are closer to finished material.  Both have higher floors than Walker but Walker has a slightly higher ceiling just based on physical abilities.  I did enjoy the arguments on Sam  Williams who as no pass rushing moves so could fit into the very back of the 1st round.  You could replace the breakdown of Williams with Walker.  No production.  No real pass rush moved other than to bull rush or stunt.  But Walker is a potential #1 pick.

 

Totally up to the GMs to swing for the fences  on projects or get a more refined player.  Bigger risk in the former for the #1 pick , but, as always, YMMV.

Williams had 12 sacks though, i mean the production is there technically 

[jebrick]

59 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Williams had 12 sacks though, i mean the production is there technically 

and Walker had 9.5 in his career.

[.Buzz]

1 hour ago, jebrick said:

and Walker had 9.5 in his career.

Pretty well documented Walkers production is the part in question at this point. With his size/length and power it would be a no brainer if he had the production to go with it.

It’s also been shown in great detail what that Georgia scheme asks their players to do. Walker wasn’t asked nor allowed to consistently pin his ears back and leaned on in the same way the other guys at the top were like Hutch, Thibs, and JJ (who was behind Walker and co. at Georgia prior to last year), etc. Whether that’s a knock in itself is fair to ask, but given the talent level at every level, at least for me, I get it. 

As I’ve said, I think Hutch is the move, but if it was another organization who has shown the ability to draft and develop sitting at 1 I wouldn’t really bat an eye at said team going for the upside play in a draft like this at the top. 

[Chiefer]

1 hour ago, jebrick said:

and Walker had 9.5 in his career.

Which is pretty rough, oof

 

not a stat that actually translates though so whatever

Edited April 24, 2022 by Chiefer