NFL News & Notes

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

7 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

He might be a marginal upgrade this year, but looking the bigger picture I'd rather give those snaps to ESB than Nelson.--If the team is throwing in the towel, then yes, stay with the young kid, ESB and take your lumps this year and go get 'em next year.  I'm of the opinion, that despite not looking the sharpest, GB has a chance to beat Seattle, Minny and Chicago, then be in the driver's seat for the division.  I'm not throwing in the towel, and if Jordy is available, while Cobb and GMO are hurt, there is literally no reason not to go get him.

I see where you are coming from.

If, however, you are Brian Gutekunst, and you have an aging WR corps with Cobb and Nelson done soon, needing to be replaced, and other holes on the team which all thing combined are going to lead to some misery for a bit, do you choose to do it now in your first year, or put it off until later when the honeymoon is over?

Gute has incentive to play the rookies, see what he has, and improve on it next year.  His clock is running.

[CWood21]

11 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Wasn't he injured and got healthy?  That was a pretty big thing that year.  Cook's health.

IIRC, he got injured in the middle of the year.  But with the exception of the game against Washington, he was limited in the number of targets thrown to him.  I believe (and I'm doing this off of memory), he was around 2 or 3 targets.  He wasn't a focal point of our offense.  Our offense started to take off when the Packers actually utilized Cook in the passing game.

12 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

I never argued to take MVS out of the game.  ESB is the one who sits.  I know you are replying to a lot of things today and seem a little jittery, but MVS for Nelson was not brought up...at all.

I've already showed you that ESB on a per target basis has been as productive as Nelson was this year.  Without going back beyond last year, what makes you think that Jordy Nelson is going to be more productive than ESB?  I get the idea that Nelson is better right now than ESB, but when you include the long term outlook of the position I'd rather roll with ESB rather than the marginal upgrade right now.

14 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

GMO is injured and there's no way that he would outproduce Nelson if they were both on the team this year.  GMO is not helping you get over the divisional hump this year due to injury.  Jordy, if released from Oakland, could offer reinforcements.

Geronimo has been productive every time he's actually gotten a significant amount of snaps.  It goes back to the other when he started off strong, but got phased out when the players ahead of him got healthy.  Geronimo has been incredibly productive when given the opportunity.

15 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

You could argue it, but you'd be incorrect.  Jordy would be a red zone threat and a third down threat.  Jordy with Rodgers is a threat.  Jordy with Carr is not a threat.  Heck, no one is in Oakland.  Did I really see ESB with 9 TD's listed above?  Wow.

That was a typo.  Either way, we're talking about hypotheticals.  We saw Jordy Nelson with Rodgers last year.  It was a shell of himself.  Are you telling me that you think Jordy Nelson is a big enough upgrade to move past ESB moving forward?  No.  This infatuation with Jordy Nelson needs to stop.  He was a great player for the Packers, but he's done.

16 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

If the team is throwing in the towel, then yes, stay with the young kid, ESB and take your lumps this year and go get 'em next year.  I'm of the opinion, that despite not looking the sharpest, GB has a chance to beat Seattle, Minny and Chicago, then be in the driver's seat for the division.  I'm not throwing in the towel, and if Jordy is available, while Cobb and GMO are hurt, there is literally no reason not to go get him.

LIS, we're talking about a marginal upgrade this year.  And I'm not going to pass on giving ESB a bigger role simply because he might be a marginally better option right now.  Our offense already is stagnated.  Why make it worse with Jordy?  Trust me, I love Jordy Nelson but his time with Green Bay is done.

[vegas492]

4 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

I see where you are coming from.

If, however, you are Brian Gutekunst, and you have an aging WR corps with Cobb and Nelson done soon, needing to be replaced, and other holes on the team which all thing combined are going to lead to some misery for a bit, do you choose to do it now in your first year, or put it off until later when the honeymoon is over?

Gute has incentive to play the rookies, see what he has, and improve on it next year.  His clock is running.

I too see where the other line of thought is coming from.

Look, I'd be dead set opposed to bringing back Nelson and possibly stunting the development of any of the rookies...if there was no hope left to win the division or get into the playoffs.

But as I see it, Gute wants to play the rookies AND make the playoffs.  So does Mac.  With Cobb always injured and now GMO out, Nelson would offer instant reinforcements to that unit.  

I do it because I think we are 3 wins away from actually being in charge of our own destiny.

Now, we lose to Seattle?  Well, that isn't all that different of a story because Chicago and Minnesota play each other.  If GB drops the next two?  Yah, now I'm more inclined to just stay with the rookies.

[vegas492]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

IIRC, he got injured in the middle of the year.  But with the exception of the game against Washington, he was limited in the number of targets thrown to him.  I believe (and I'm doing this off of memory), he was around 2 or 3 targets.  He wasn't a focal point of our offense.  Our offense started to take off when the Packers actually utilized Cook in the passing game.

I've already showed you that ESB on a per target basis has been as productive as Nelson was this year.  Without going back beyond last year, what makes you think that Jordy Nelson is going to be more productive than ESB?  I get the idea that Nelson is better right now than ESB, but when you include the long term outlook of the position I'd rather roll with ESB rather than the marginal upgrade right now.

Geronimo has been productive every time he's actually gotten a significant amount of snaps.  It goes back to the other when he started off strong, but got phased out when the players ahead of him got healthy.  Geronimo has been incredibly productive when given the opportunity.

That was a typo.  Either way, we're talking about hypotheticals.  We saw Jordy Nelson with Rodgers last year.  It was a shell of himself.  Are you telling me that you think Jordy Nelson is a big enough upgrade to move past ESB moving forward?  No.  This infatuation with Jordy Nelson needs to stop.  He was a great player for the Packers, but he's done.

LIS, we're talking about a marginal upgrade this year.  And I'm not going to pass on giving ESB a bigger role simply because he might be a marginally better option right now.  Our offense already is stagnated.  Why make it worse with Jordy?  Trust me, I love Jordy Nelson but his time with Green Bay is done.

So he was injured and got healthy, which resulted in more targets...obviously he got more acclimated with the offense too...Cook that is.  Yah, offense hummed along when you have a healthy and up to speed Cook.  I think we are kind of saying the same thing here.

I don't think ESB has been more productive on a per target basis.  We can disagree on that.  Jordy was on pace for over 900 yards and double digit TD's.  We have a red zone issue right now, Jordy would instantly help that.  And if he did nothing else, he'd be worth it.  If...if the team is in the divisional and/or playoff hunt.

GMO productive?  Yes.  Somewhat.  I still don't think that his stats would be different than Jordy's stats, this year, if both had Rodgers.  But, we can disagree there, that is fine.  Because this we will agree on...GMO isn't helping us win the next 4 or 5 games.  Jordy could.  And that is what this is about...trying to secure a few wins in a row to be a contender.

I admit that Jordy couldn't run last year.  But he did score TD's.  He would be a red zone weapon and I'd argue, a third down weapon.

Marginal upgrade?  Yes.  Give me a little upgrade, maybe 2 more first downs a game and probably one more TD every other game.  This game is won or lost on a few critical plays.  Who you gonna trust, ESB or Nelson?  I'll take the vet who has a connection with Rodgers...at least until GB is pretty much out of it.

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

So he was injured and got healthy, which resulted in more targets...obviously he got more acclimated with the offense too...Cook that is.  Yah, offense hummed along when you have a healthy and up to speed Cook.  I think we are kind of saying the same thing here.

In his first 3 games with the Packers, he averaged 4 targets with a catch rate just north of 54%.  The final 7 games he played in, he averaged 6 targets per game and his catch rate was 65%.  Health wasn't an issue in the first few games.  His lack of connection with Rodgers was.

5 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

I don't think ESB has been more productive on a per target basis.  We can disagree on that.  Jordy was on pace for over 900 yards and double digit TD's.  We have a red zone issue right now, Jordy would instantly help that.  And if he did nothing else, he'd be worth it.  If...if the team is in the divisional and/or playoff hunt.

I literally just showed you on a per target basis, ESB was more productive.  Let's also not forget that ESB has only played in 24% of the offensive snaps.  Jordy Nelson has played in 84% of the snaps.  It really is no wonder why Jordy Nelson's bulk stats are more impressive than ESB's.  It's because he was a huge part of the offense.  He's played in 30+ of the snaps in 3 of the 6 games he's played in.  The least amount of snaps Jordy has gotten all year was 43 the last two years.

8 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

GMO productive?  Yes.  Somewhat.  I still don't think that his stats would be different than Jordy's stats, this year, if both had Rodgers.  But, we can disagree there, that is fine.  Because this we will agree on...GMO isn't helping us win the next 4 or 5 games.  Jordy could.  And that is what this is about...trying to secure a few wins in a row to be a contender.

What has Jordy done the last year and a half to make you think Jordy of old is coming out to play?  And the only reason this is a hypothetical is because Allison is likely out for the year.  IF he wasn't out, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

9 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Marginal upgrade?  Yes.  Give me a little upgrade, maybe 2 more first downs a game and probably one more TD every other game.  This game is won or lost on a few critical plays.  Who you gonna trust, ESB or Nelson?  I'll take the vet who has a connection with Rodgers...at least until GB is pretty much out of it.

That's incredibly generous.

[vegas492]

43 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

In his first 3 games with the Packers, he averaged 4 targets with a catch rate just north of 54%.  The final 7 games he played in, he averaged 6 targets per game and his catch rate was 65%.  Health wasn't an issue in the first few games.  His lack of connection with Rodgers was.

I literally just showed you on a per target basis, ESB was more productive.  Let's also not forget that ESB has only played in 24% of the offensive snaps.  Jordy Nelson has played in 84% of the snaps.  It really is no wonder why Jordy Nelson's bulk stats are more impressive than ESB's.  It's because he was a huge part of the offense.  He's played in 30+ of the snaps in 3 of the 6 games he's played in.  The least amount of snaps Jordy has gotten all year was 43 the last two years.

What has Jordy done the last year and a half to make you think Jordy of old is coming out to play?  And the only reason this is a hypothetical is because Allison is likely out for the year.  IF he wasn't out, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

That's incredibly generous.

Regarding Cook, lack of Rodgers connection, lack of connection with the offense, or is it one in the same?  I"m confused as to what is being debated here.  Is the premise that Cooks got better in the offense the more he learned the playbook, got healthy and gained the trust of Rodgers?  Because that is all true.  Difference between Cook and any rookie WR is that Cook was a veteran in the NFL and had years of experience.

Per target.  Hmmm.  If you have limited targets, you could skew the results, no?  If you have high targets, then your sample size is more credible.  I'd argue ESB isn't a large part of the offense because he doesn't understand the large part of the offense.  He's out there because literally there is no one left.  If GMO were healthy, he'd get the snaps, or Cobb if healthy.  But they aren't healthy.  I"d feel better if there were a veteran, like Jordy, around to take those snaps....until GB realistically isn't in it anymore.

What has Jordy done?  6 touchdowns in 4 games with Rodgers in 2017.  230 yards.  That's what he did with Rodgers.

You are right, if Allison was here, wouldn't be discussing this.  But he isn't.  And I feel like GB is still in it and if they had a red zone/third down threat, they'd be better on offense.  

Generous to think Jordy would get 2 first downs a game and half a score more than ESB?  How many catches did ESB have again yesterday?  Has he hit double digits on the year yet?  Look, I'm not saying the kid doesn't have a future.  I am saying that the future for him isn't necessarily now.  He's out there, now, because we lack options.

 

[Stevein2012]

2nd half of the season Jordy coming off a leg injury... hard pass

[CWood21]

11 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Regarding Cook, lack of Rodgers connection, lack of connection with the offense, or is it one in the same?  I"m confused as to what is being debated here.  Is the premise that Cooks got better in the offense the more he learned the playbook, got healthy and gained the trust of Rodgers?  Because that is all true.  Difference between Cook and any rookie WR is that Cook was a veteran in the NFL and had years of experience.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but you made the argument that him getting healthy was the reason for his improvements.  I made the argument that him getting to know the offense.  Cook should have been able to jump in immediately and make an impact, but Rodgers wouldn't throw it to him.

12 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Per target.  Hmmm.  If you have limited targets, you could skew the results, no?  If you have high targets, then your sample size is more credible.  I'd argue ESB isn't a large part of the offense because he doesn't understand the large part of the offense.  He's out there because literally there is no one left.  If GMO were healthy, he'd get the snaps, or Cobb if healthy.  But they aren't healthy.  I"d feel better if there were a veteran, like Jordy, around to take those snaps....until GB realistically isn't in it anymore.

No doubt.  But you can't make a straight comparison when one player is given a TON of opportunities to produce and the other one is getting buried by veterans making more money.  It's just merely an opportunity to compare.

[Norm]

3 hours ago, Lodestar said:

ITT: A lot of people who haven't watched Jordy Nelson play this year

Why would anyone watch the Raiders though?

[Toddfather]

Even if he unretired wouldn't the Raiders have to release his rights? 

[Arthur Penske]

3 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Anyone remember how many targets Jared Cook got in the first half of the season?  In Cook's first 7 games with the Packers, he averaged 4.3 targets per game which was highly inflated by his game against Washington when he got 11 attempts.  In his final 6 games with Green Bay, he averaged 8.8 targets per game.    What's more likely, Aaron finally trusted Jared Cook to throw to him or that Jared Cook's talent level suddenly jumped?  It's clearly the former.

As for Jordy Nelson, he's clearly a shell of his former self.  Let me ask you this, are we any less of with MVS than we would have been with Jordy Nelson?  I mean, go compare MVS this year to Jordy Nelson last year.

MVS: 23 receptions, 402 receiving yards, 2 TD receptions, 39 targets (9 games)
Jordy: 53 receptions, 482 receiving yards, 6 TD receptions, 88 targets (15 games)
MVS: 38 receptions, 670 receiving yards, 3 TD receptions, 65 targets (15 game extrapolation)

MVS is on pace to be a significantly more productive receiver than Jordy Nelson was last year.  Let that soak in.  Hell, Geronimo Allison has been more productive than Jordy Nelson this year.

Jordy: 25 receptions, 353 receiving yards, 3 TD receptions, 39 targets (9 games)
Geronimo: 20 receptions, 303 receiving yards, 2 TD receptions, 30 targets (5 games)
MVS: 23 receptions, 402 receiving yards, 2 TD receptions, 39 targets (9 games)
Geronimo: 36 receptions, 545 receiving yards, 4 TD receptions, 54 targets (9 game extrapolation)

Hell, I could probably make an argument that ESB on a per target basis is more productive than Jordy Nelson.

Jordy: 25 receptions, 353 receiving yards, 3 TD receptions, 39 targets (9 games)
ESB: 23 receptions, 380 receiving yards, 9 TD receptions, 39 targets (9 games extrapolation w/ Jordy targets)

At best, he's a marginal upgrade over ESB right now.  But long-term, he's not part of our plan.  I'd rather give those snaps to ESB and figure out what we have in him than go back and get Jordy Nelson.  And I love Jordy Nelson and everything he's done for this franchise.  But he's done.  Jordy Nelson is a shell of his self.  He might be a marginal upgrade this year, but looking the bigger picture I'd rather give those snaps to ESB than Nelson.

I am not advocating Jordy coming back (if it were even possible), especially at the expense of the development of MVS, ESP, and Moore. I’ve moved on and like the young WRs.

However, I think you’re looking this all wrong. The value of Jordy is not just Jordy and how good he was or is now. His value is with Rogers and what they bring together. You’re comparing stats last year in Rogers was hurt.

The chemistry and sense of ESP those two had was worth more than any athleticism Jordy has had for a few years and will likely not be replicated. You heard Rodgers say it himself earlier this year, those two could make throws together in their sleep that Rodgers and the rookies have struggled with this season.

[Kepler]

24 minutes ago, Toddfather said:

Even if he unretired wouldn't the Raiders have to release his rights? 

I would assume so yes.

[HeresAGuy]

46 minutes ago, Norm said:

Why would anyone watch the Raiders though?

pretending they know it all and are just assuming looking at stats***

 

but yes, the Raiders would have to release his rights

Edited November 13, 2018 by HeresAGuy

[green machine]

If the Raiders release his rights this year, he would be subject to waivers, afterward he would become a free agent.

[Sasquatch]

7 hours ago, green machine said:

If the Raiders release his rights this year, he would be subject to waivers, afterward he would become a free agent.

I can’t remember how we relaeased Martellus Bennett last year, but I’m thinking it would be similar with Nelson, if Jordy was interested in playing again this year of course.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Sasquatch