This Is Rival Talk v1.0

[malak1]

41 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said:

 

So, do you blame the GM or the DC for not getting the talent needed?  Keep in mind from 2011-17* the Packers had 15 first and second round picks, 10 of these were spent on defensive players.  These draft picks were a mixed bag, but the investment was made.  If your defense only works with a top 3 safety, and a DPOY on it, I tend to blame the defensive scheme more than the talent available.  Just give me Harrison Smith, Jalen Ramsey, and Khalil Mack and my defense will work.

 

*I used this time period because it was the Thompson/Capers overlap after the defense hit its height in 2010, I think it was second in the league that season.  The 2010 defense boasted: Charles Woodson, Nick Collins, Clay Matthews, BJ Raji, Ryan Pickett, Cullen Jenkins, Tramon Williams, and Sam Shields.  The combo of Shields and Williams is absolute UDFA gold, probably an NFL GM's wet dream.

That’s a good point.

[TheOnlyThing]

2 hours ago, ThatJerkDave said:

So, do you blame the GM or the DC for not getting the talent needed?  Keep in mind from 2011-17* the Packers had 15 first and second round picks, 10 of these were spent on defensive players.  These draft picks were a mixed bag, but the investment was made.  If your defense only works with a top 3 safety, and a DPOY on it, I tend to blame the defensive scheme more than the talent available. 

You'll get no argument from me that Dom should have been let go long before 2017 and should have gotten more out of the "talent" on defense than he did.

However, let's take a closer look at those first and second round picks between 2011-2017 that Dom had to work with:

1) Nick Perry - Career marked by injury, has reached double digits in sacks just once in 6 years (on pace for 5 more this season)

2) Jerrel Worthy - Bust

3) Casey Hayward - Decent in GB, stud once gone, best argument that the DC was primarily to blame for the defensive shortcomings

4) Datone Jones - Borderline bust who has been with 4 different teams since leaving GB after the 2016 season (and returned to his preferred position as a DT in a 4-3 scheme)

5) HHCD - Decent starter (many Packer fans think he's less than that)

6) Damarious Randall - Drafted to play CB by the GM, known mostly for his attitude during his time in GB, now back playing S in Cleveland

7) Quentin Rollins - Bust

8) Kenny Clark - Best player selected during this period, but don't think Dom misused him

9) Kevin King - Injured when drafted, shut down halfway through his rookie year

10) Josh Jones - Mostly known for blowing coverages as a rookie.

In addition, prior to 2017, the previous GM all but refused to add players who had ever been on other NFL teams, so Dom had to sink or swim with the "mixed bag" of draftees and UDFAs.

Finally, the two marquee positions in the 3-4 scheme are OLB (pressure) and CB (coverage).

In 2017, at OLB Dom had Clay, Perry (who combined for 14.5 sacks), Ahmad Brooks, Kyler Fackrell, Vince Biegel, Chris Odom, and (for the final two games of the season) Reggie Gilbert.

At CB, he had Randall (a safety playing out of position), King (injured when selected & missed half the season), House (injured as always and not very good when healthy), Rollins, Hawkins, and Pipkins.

There is a reason Gute has replaced every CB on the roster other than Kevin King.

Gute has also already gotten rid of Odom, Biegel, and Brooks at OLB. I anticipate he will further transform the OLB position after (and perhaps even during the remainder of) the 2018 season. 

So, my answer to your question "do you blame the GM or the DC for not getting the talent needed?" is that both Dom and the former GM are to blame for the defensive failures between 2011 and 2017. 

[Joe]

5 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

You'll get no argument from me that Dom should have been let go long before 2017 and should have gotten more out of the "talent" on defense than he did.

However, let's take a closer look at those first and second round picks between 2011-2017 that Dom had to work with:

1) Nick Perry - Career marked by injury, has reached double digits in sacks just once in 6 years (on pace for 5 more this season)

2) Jerrel Worthy - Bust

3) Casey Hayward - Decent in GB, stud once gone, best argument that the DC was primarily to blame for the defensive shortcomings

4) Datone Jones - Borderline bust who has been with 4 different teams since leaving GB after the 2016 season (and returned to his preferred position as a DT in a 4-3 scheme)

5) HHCD - Decent starter (many Packer fans think he's less than that)

6) Damarious Randall - Drafted to play CB by the GM, known mostly for his attitude during his time in GB, now back playing S in Cleveland

7) Quentin Rollins - Bust

8) Kenny Clark - Best player selected during this period, but don't think Dom misused him

9) Kevin King - Injured when drafted, shut down halfway through his rookie year

10) Josh Jones - Mostly known for blowing coverages as a rookie.

In addition, prior to 2017, the previous GM all but refused to add players who had ever been on other NFL teams, so Dom had to sink or swim with the "mixed bag" of draftees and UDFAs.

Finally, the two marquee positions in the 3-4 scheme are OLB (pressure) and CB (coverage).

In 2017, at OLB Dom had Clay, Perry (who combined for 14.5 sacks), Ahmad Brooks, Kyler Fackrell, Vince Biegel, Chris Odom, and (for the final two games of the season) Reggie Gilbert.

At CB, he had Randall (a safety playing out of position), King (injured when selected & missed half the season), House (injured as always and not very good when healthy), Rollins, Hawkins, and Pipkins.

There is a reason Gute has replaced every CB on the roster other than Kevin King.

Gute has also already gotten rid of Odom, Biegel, and Brooks at OLB. I anticipate he will further transform the OLB position after (and perhaps even during the remainder of) the 2018 season. 

So, my answer to your question "do you blame the GM or the DC for not getting the talent needed?" is that both Dom and the former GM are to blame for the defensive failures between 2011 and 2017. 

Very logical argument, but one has to add that one influenced the other here. Jerel Worthy would have probably been a solid starter had he gone to a 4-3 team with a similar defense to what the Rams are running at the moment where Worthy could be inside charging next to a bigger NT. We forced Perry, and many other 3-techs, into either 2-gapping(which didn't really work, except for Daniels) or playing another odd front where they were over-matched due to adjustments by opposite OC's in order to counter Dom's defense. Dom made VERY little adjustments as we all remember. The worst example is the 2011 loss where he made zero adjustments during the second half dropping 8 guys into coverage and rushing the same three, gassed DL. Dom showed that he learned his lesson in subsequent years, but the improvement was minimal and any Dom defender could easily say his issues were the result of annual attrition due to injury and a lack of talent following the exodus of Cullen Jenkins. The performance of the 2014 defense LITERALLY bought Dom three more years in GB

 

I contend that while all of the above is true, it's a result of Ted trusting Dom far too much and MM giving Dom far too much latitude.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Joe

[MacReady]

Perfect week:

Colts over Texans.
Packers over Bills. 
Buccaneers over Bears.
Dolphins over Patriots.
Cowboys over Lions.
Falcons over Bengals (more teams above Saints)
Jaguars over Jets.
Titans over Eagles.
Raiders over Browns (Browns have already passed on a potential franchise pass rusher last year and would probably go OL).
Cardinals over Seahawks.
Giants over Saints.
Chargers over Niners.
Ravens over Steelers.
Broncos over Chiefs.

[MacReady]

@Packerraymond, another red zone touchdown pass from Ryan to somebody not named Jones.  Three weeks in a row now Ryan has dominated in the red zone.  No passes to Jones. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Outpost31

[MacReady]

Just now, Outpost31 said:

@Packerraymond, another red zone touchdown pass from Ryan to somebody not named Jones.  Three weeks in a row now Ryan has dominated in the red zone.  No passes to Jones. 

Another one. 

[WaitWhat]

Bucs are who we thought they were. Just awful showing today. 

[Dubz41]

On 9/25/2018 at 9:25 AM, TENINCH said:

It's one of the coldest seats in the NFL

From St. Paul Pioneer Press:

It will be interesting, if the Minnesota Vikings’ season collapses, if Mike Zimmer is retained as coach.

The Vikings have a young, innovative, energetic offensive coordinator in John DeFilippo who is expected to receive serious consideration for several head coaching jobs after the season

If the Vikings make a head coaching change, they could already have their guy.

Zimmer is 62. DeFilippo is 40. It’s too early to determine that Zimmer is no longer effective. But owner Zygi Wilf, impatient for a Super Bowl, has invested heavily in this Vikings team, and it seems unlikely that he would accept a non-playoff team.

If the Vikings lose to the favored Eagles in Philadelphia next Sunday, they would be 1-3-1. That’s a difficult hole from which to dig out.

The NFL trend is to go with young, bright, offensive-minded head coaches who appeal to young players. Sean McVay, whose Rams are a legitimate Super Bowl contender after defeating the Vikings 38-31 Thursday night, is 32. Sean McDermott, whose Bills stunned the Vikings 27-6 last Sunday, is 44. The 49ers’ Kyle Shanahan is 38. Bears coach Mike Nagy is 40. There are nine NFL head coaches this season under 50.

Doug Pederson, who coached the Eagles to the Super Bowl championship last season, is 50.

It’s cheaper to change the coach than the players, especially when the players have multi-year contracts with millions of dollars guaranteed. Zimmer, if the Vikings falter, could become the fall guy, whether deserved or not. It’s one way to interject some energy into the organization.

It will be interesting to see how the season plays out. The way it looks now, the Vikings might not finish better than even Chicago or Detroit.

[WaitWhat]

Would be crazy if Zimmer is let go before they even reach the halfway point of the season after coming into the year with Super Bowl aspirations. Just shows once again how quickly things can change in this league. 

[Packer_ESP]

Those Lions uniforms are possibly the ugliest outfit I've ever seen

[Leader]

2 minutes ago, Packer_ESP said:

Those Lions uniforms are possibly the ugliest outfit I've ever seen

Our throwbacks arent anything to write home about

[AlexGreen#20]

Now THAT was an excellent run by Jones. 

[AlexGreen#20]

Nelson just allowed a drive killing (final drive of the game in OT) sack

[AlexGreen#20]

What the ******* **** was that call in Houston vs Indy?

[deltarich87]

2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

What the ******* **** was that call in Houston vs Indy?

It's called handing a win to an 0-3 team