Oregon Ducks Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Why would anyone want to pay Teddy or the other guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breesus mode Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I'd see if I can get Case and Teddy signed to reasonable contracts. If Teddy works out great, you have your starting QB and a guy that can fill in if he gets hurt. If not, you have Case who hopefully doesn't implode. Bradford just cannot stay healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 People who keep saying MIN will have to gut their D core to get Cousins aren't paying attention to Min's cap health. MIN's cap space 2018 - 48M 2019 - 68M 2020 - 92M And that's before you factor in guys that frankly don't need to be kept - Latavius Murray saves another 5M this year, or next (because the signing bonus is so low). Floyd was elite his first 2 years - but now his knee condition makes even a 7-8M salary iffy...and a potential savings. The MIN D was elite without him last year. As far as FA's in 2018-19-20 - Floyd's knee is already making him expendable now, he's not going to be a re-sign. Kyle Rudolph is a great complementary piece, but at 7+M, he's already an easy choice to let walk. Harrison Smith, Everson Griffin, Xavier Rhodes, Linval Joseph are locked up. Dalvin Cook's on his 2nd year of a rookie deal, Thielen's locked up. No major UFA's are on the 2018 board as a priority. So the UFA's that matter are Barr/Kendricks / Diggs / Hunter in 2019. 2018 doesn't have any major pieces. In 2020 both Waynes and Alexander will be UFA's - given Waynes' play, he doesn't look like he will be a guy to pay big $ to, MIN will likely want to keep one of them, but not both. Still, you'd say, those are big $ signs, 4-5 over 2019-20, right? Well, here's where MIN's cap health comes in - they already have 68M and 92M left in space in 2019-20. To go with the 48M they have now. So let's say Cousins costs 3/90 over the next 3 years in guarantees. Well, MIN still has over 100M to spend...and that's before they make decisions like letting overpaid midlevel vets like Lat Murray, Remmers, Rudolph. Thing is, the likely won't need to cut all of them either - because if it's a 2-year period (2019-20), even if they keep all of Barr/Kendricks/Diggs/Hunter in 2019 & Waynes in 2020, they've got the room already. And by 2018, it's possible one of those 4 2019 UFA's won't simply be worth the UFA money, either with injury or decline. Given the wear and tear off-ball ILB's take, I'd put the greatest risk on Barr/Kendricks. Diggs & Hunter (although I'm projecting on Hunter's growth & development) seem to be the safest. Now, MIN still needs to draft well - but that's the case no matter what - because once all your great bargains no longer are bargains, you can't field a complete team without replenishing your cheap talent. But the reality is that a starting FA QB costs 18-20M AAV. Cousins wants somewhere between 25-30M. That 8-10M difference costs 1 very good player if you have the room - 15M costs you 2 good players, or an elite player. But that's if you don't have the room. MIN has the room. If this was an argument about getting an elite-ceiling Rd1 rookie vs. Cousins, then you'd be making a different argument $-wise about cash allocation to team budgets. But we're talking about MIN signing Keenum, or even Bridgewater - Bridgewater won't command as much $, but Keenum is a 18M+ AAV FA as the #2 guy, even if he's only seen as "decent" - which is why I'm personally staying away. That's the price of QB these days. Keenum vs. Cousins is a 1-player argument in difference...if you have very little $. With MIN's cap situation, I don't even know that it's that much of a difference. Finally, for all the "Cousins would face a lot of expectations" argument - he'd face them everywhere, given the $ he'd make. It's selective bias to attribute this only to MIN. It would be there in DEN - and for all the "you'd have to gut the team to get him" arguments people keep applying for MIN - they'd apply 10x greater to DEN - because we have not only way less cap space, but we don't have the same value bargains across the board MIN's enjoyed (mainly because Elway's not had the recent draft success). Add it up, it's not sexy at all, or dramatic, but there's a reason why Cousins-to-MIN is the odds on favorite. The only issue is if MIN decides to get too cute, and ask for more of a discount for the contender angle than Cousins is willing to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriminalMind Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Re: BroncoFan - I think Latavius Murray will play this year with Minny, his contract can fit with Cousins - S Floyd is done in the NFL after the surgical error, comes off the books now - Remmers & Waynes will be cap casualties next year after the 2018 season ... replaced with draft picks from 2018 or 2019 draft. - Rudolph (my guess) will either be restructures or released after the 2018 season - Barr is set to make his 5th year salary in 2018 & already factored in and generally we've had success with extending these guys to bring down cap numbers, so my expectation is that will happen this offseason - The Barr extension will further open up room for Hunter / Diggs / Kendricks to potentially sign extensions in the summer months before the 2018 season. -If Minny needs to give Cousins $91M for 3 years ... I think it can be accommodated in the 3 year outlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I'd be less worried about the cap issues forcing them to tear their D apart than the fact that their D was absolutely exposed in the postseason. The blueprint has been set to beat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriminalMind Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 22 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: I'd be less worried about the cap issues forcing them to tear their D apart than the fact that their D was absolutely exposed in the postseason. The blueprint has been set to beat them. Just wondering whats the blueprint from the Eagles game is? Build the best OL in league? Be aggressive on offense? Go over the top of the CBs? It was the worst called game by Shurmur & Zimmer of the season, they share more blame then Case (I feel) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 41 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: I'd be less worried about the cap issues forcing them to tear their D apart than the fact that their D was absolutely exposed in the postseason. The blueprint has been set to beat them. what blueprint is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 4 hours ago, Broncofan said: People who keep saying MIN will have to gut their D core to get Cousins aren't paying attention to Min's cap health. You should send this post to Mike Zimmer because he was the one opining about putting too much cap into one position and hurting the rest of the team. Your post is very well done ( as per usual) but I think the "gut the core" comment is a bit off base. When I wrote about this earlier, I compared it to what happened in Seattle once Wilson got paid. And the Seattle defense wasn't gutted. What happened is that the combination of age, injury and defections added up over time and slowly decimated their once potent defense. If you look at them now, it ain't a pretty sight. It takes a lot to maintain a top defense, drafting, developing and paying 15 + players over the course of several seasons. Its a game of attrition and having cap space while helpful - isn't the complete answer. Cap space doesn't fix injuries, nor does it stop young defenders from aging. Signing Cousins will impact the rest of the team going forward and that's what Zimmer was worried about. Its not a dumb move, but it isn't without risk either- especially because the way to win in the NFL isn't by paying players what they are worth - its by paying them less. Paying Aaron Rodgers money for Kirk Cousins performance will have repercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamcanadian Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 3 hours ago, CriminalMind said: Re: BroncoFan - I think Latavius Murray will play this year with Minny, his contract can fit with Cousins - S Floyd is done in the NFL after the surgical error, comes off the books now - Remmers & Waynes will be cap casualties next year after the 2018 season ... replaced with draft picks from 2018 or 2019 draft. - Rudolph (my guess) will either be restructures or released after the 2018 season - Barr is set to make his 5th year salary in 2018 & already factored in and generally we've had success with extending these guys to bring down cap numbers, so my expectation is that will happen this offseason - The Barr extension will further open up room for Hunter / Diggs / Kendricks to potentially sign extensions in the summer months before the 2018 season. -If Minny needs to give Cousins $91M for 3 years ... I think it can be accommodated in the 3 year outlook. I would not be so sure, when you pay a guy 31 million a year, the other veterans are not likely to be in any mood to take a pay cut, they are far more likely to demand sizable raises. Then when you factor in that Minny may well cut a few veterans to accommodate Cousin's salary, you could end up with a very unhappy locker room. IMO, we will have to wait to see the effect it has on his teammates to see how they react to his salary every time a veteran is released. He could end up a cancer on the team. It may look great on paper, but the reality often turns out to be something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Shanedorf said: You should send this post to Mike Zimmer because he was the one opining about putting too much cap into one position and hurting the rest of the team. Your post is very well done ( as per usual) but I think the "gut the core" comment is a bit off base. When I wrote about this earlier, I compared it to what happened in Seattle once Wilson got paid. And the Seattle defense wasn't gutted. What happened is that the combination of age, injury and defections added up over time and slowly decimated their once potent defense. If you look at them now, it ain't a pretty sight. It takes a lot to maintain a top defense, drafting, developing and paying 15 + players over the course of several seasons. Its a game of attrition and having cap space while helpful - isn't the complete answer. Cap space doesn't fix injuries, nor does it stop young defenders from aging. Signing Cousins will impact the rest of the team going forward and that's what Zimmer was worried about. Its not a dumb move, but it isn't without risk either- especially because the way to win in the NFL isn't by paying players what they are worth - its by paying them less. Paying Aaron Rodgers money for Kirk Cousins performance will have repercussions If ppl want to argue that Cousins’ play won’t be enough to justify the 30M AAV that’s a fair argument. If ppl want to argue that if MIN doesn’t stop finding value in the draft they won’t be able to keep fielding a complete team is very fair - but that impact won’t happen until after 2020. That’s my point. For a win-now move MIN has positioned themselves to fit Cousins and keep the core for 2018-20. The cap reality is that unless you keep finding cheap value in the draft the bill will come due - but 3 years down the line is as good as any team can hope for. We had that butcher’s bill come due after 2015 once Von and the 2011 draft and 2012 UDFA bargains had to be extended. MIN has positioned themselves to keep their core and fit Cousins for 2018-20. After that their cap health will depend on the draft - but that’s literally true for all 32 teams. 3 years of cap health is all you can count on given the cheap rookie deals only go 4 years (except Rd1). As for Zimmer’s comments - it’s good PR until MIN gets their QB. They aren’t a lock even if they are the favorite. Zimmer’s words will be used to justify that they are fine if Cousins goes elsewhere - just like I’m sure Zimmer will call him the final piece if he signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 On 3/7/2018 at 10:20 AM, Shanedorf said: You should send this post to Mike Zimmer because he was the one opining about putting too much cap into one position and hurting the rest of the team. Your post is very well done ( as per usual) but I think the "gut the core" comment is a bit off base. When I wrote about this earlier, I compared it to what happened in Seattle once Wilson got paid. And the Seattle defense wasn't gutted. What happened is that the combination of age, injury and defections added up over time and slowly decimated their once potent defense. If you look at them now, it ain't a pretty sight. It takes a lot to maintain a top defense, drafting, developing and paying 15 + players over the course of several seasons. Its a game of attrition and having cap space while helpful - isn't the complete answer. Cap space doesn't fix injuries, nor does it stop young defenders from aging. Signing Cousins will impact the rest of the team going forward and that's what Zimmer was worried about. Its not a dumb move, but it isn't without risk either- especially because the way to win in the NFL isn't by paying players what they are worth - its by paying them less. Paying Aaron Rodgers money for Kirk Cousins performance will have repercussions Yeah. That's really the crux of the Kirk Cousins question. It's one thing to pay an Aaron Rodgers like that, where he has the ability to truly elevate a lot of people around him and cover up for a lot of deficiencies that might crop up over time as a result of that salary structure. I'm still not entirely sold on Cousins being that guy. At least, not to quite that same extent. Of course, the cap keeps going up, this is the new reality of starting QB contracts, yadda yadda. But i think that's where you can really get into trouble over time. Where you can end up in a bit of a "QB Purgatory"...not because your guy isn't good enough to win with...but rather, because your guy might not be good enough to win with the talent you can afford to surround them with as a result of the QB contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikesfan89 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Tugboat said: Yeah. That's really the crux of the Kirk Cousins question. It's one thing to pay an Aaron Rodgers like that, where he has the ability to truly elevate a lot of people around him and cover up for a lot of deficiencies that might crop up over time as a result of that salary structure. I'm still not entirely sold on Cousins being that guy. At least, not to quite that same extent. Of course, the cap keeps going up, this is the new reality of starting QB contracts, yadda yadda. But i think that's where you can really get into trouble over time. Where you can end up in a bit of a "QB Purgatory"...not because your guy isn't good enough to win with...but rather, because your guy might not be good enough to win with the talent you can afford to surround them with as a result of the QB contract. He just has to win a super bowl next season and problem is solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 FWIW, anyone who thinks DEN is a serious contender with Talib traded, a couple of points: 1. Talib was going to get cut/traded no matter what. If you wonder why, read the Talib trade thread (page 2), don't want to hijack. 2. More importantly, Cousins has clearly said he wants to go to a win-now contender. We have the history, and a reasonable chance with Elway in control that we can get there in 2019 - but we're not a serious 2018 contender. Trading Talib won't make him or his agent see us as a 2018 contender, not by a long shot. Frankly, I love Cousins, see him as a top 10 QB, and a true 3-4W QB, franchise-level, and if we were just 1 guy away, I'd welcome him with open arms... but he's not enough to make us a legit contender even if he did come, not even close. Given that, we're better off not committing 25-30M AAV to Cousins and looking to strike gold (and invest a year of development) into a rookie QB at 1.5. But if I'm in MIN's shoes, I have zero hesitation. Frankly, I pull the trigger faster than Les Snead picks up the phone when he sees another team's GM on the line. MIN & JAX were the 2 teams where they could say a top-10 QB talent puts them over the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveTheVikings Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 One thing I think needs bringing up regarding Cousins, in losses during the past 3 years his defense has given up on average 30+ ppg. No QB in the league would have great success when trying to overcome that consistently. Not saying Cousins is close to Rodgers, Brady, Wentz but you do have to take that into account when the claim that Cousins is a loser gets brought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelKing728 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 On 3/7/2018 at 10:34 AM, GSUeagles14 said: what blueprint is that? Nick Foles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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